Brian Leiter Has Principles
I’ve always thought of Leiter as a bully. But I think I’ve misjudged him. Amazingly enough, Leiter is defending John Yoo against the army of legal academics and students who are calling for his head. This is despite the fact that Leiter is firmly convinced that Yoo’s work was morally odious.
What would universities be like if allegations that a faculty member had committed a crime could trigger a university investigation into the possible crime? Law professors often serve in government roles; former government attorneys often end up in academia. The potential for allegations of criminality are rich with possibility. Universities would quickly become the surrogate criminal justice system, where aggrieved individuals could go to exact punishment for abhorrent government policies. I find it hard to believe that this nightmare world is one that anyone that cares about universities or freedom of speech welcomes.
Note that Leiter’s position will likely make him unpopular with his colleagues. I’m impressed.
I agree, Reihan — I think Leiter nailed this one. It’s the clearest piece on this kerfuffle I’ve seen.
— Alan Jacobs · Apr 22, 08:55 PM · #
Well, at least he has principles when it comes to an issue where he, as a radical leftist,* fears that his own employment could be targeted by outsiders.
* Not an insult here, but an accurate description of someone who is so defensive about communism.
— JD · Apr 22, 09:01 PM · #
“What would universities be like if allegations that a faculty member had committed a crime could trigger a university investigation into the possible crime? “
Whe the alleged crime reflects on the professors ability to do his job—as it does with Yoo—it would be like, universities looking into the allegations—talking to the police, reading court documents, maybe talking to some lawyers to get some kind of opinion of the import of the allegations—and then if they decide the allegations are true, firing the bastard. Either Yoo came up with those ridiculous arguments to provide leagal cover for torture (my bet) or he came up with those ridiculous arguments becasue he is incompetent. Either way he is not a good candidte to teach law.
And the whole thing about universitys becomeing shadow legal systems is totally retarded. Sure poeple move between governemnt and universities, but how many do things in government that seem obviously to be crimes that relate to what the teach? Does anyone have any other examples besides Yoo. That whole post is, respectfully, stupid.
— cw · Apr 23, 12:13 AM · #
Strike that talking to police part. I’m not saying the police are involved here.
— cw · Apr 23, 12:14 AM · #
I’m with cw. Suppose a tenured professor at Harvard’s divinity school defiled the National Cathedral or the Chair of the English Department burned a first folio edition of Shakespeare, would you argue the university had no right to review their tenures? Like these examples, Yoo’s admitted conduct cuts to the core of his respect for—and ability to teach—his discipline.
So it’s not “crime.” If Yoo were accused of armed robbery or mail fraud, we wouldn’t be having this argument.
— southpaw · Apr 23, 05:44 AM · #
My thought on this for some years has been that if Berkeley wants to do something about Yoo — and maybe it should — then somebody better ‘splain to me why they haven’t done anything about Peter Duesberg first. There’s probably lots and lots of examples of profs for whom the same academic arguments for de-tenure can be made as for Yoo — Duesberg again being an egregious one — and I have a hard time coming up with, what’s so special about the Yoo case?
Although, let’s be clear: I think the answer is get rid of tenure and purge ‘em all, not, keep Yoo. But if you’re going to overlook the problem 99% of the time and then suddenly get all huffy in this one case, that’s something else.
— Sanjay · Apr 23, 01:52 PM · #
“There’s probably lots and lots of examples of profs for whom the same academic arguments for de-tenure can be made as for Yoo…”
I have no idea, but I doubt there are “lots and lots of examples” of cases similar to Yoo’s. I guess threre are the professors who falsefy data. But it seems like those guys get fired, right? Who is Duesberg and what did he do?
— cw · Apr 23, 03:04 PM · #
More when I have a minute but immediately — what Yoo did isn’t quite the same as falsifying data, no? He had ideas so woefully out of step with how his profession thinks it works — although, note, it’s still a lot wishy-washier than hard science, repugnant though Yoo’s views are, and thinly reasoned by the standards of his discipline, they aren’t “wrong” the same way, say, arguing 2+2=5 is wrong — what Yoo did is surely a lesser academic sin than (say) publishing falsified data.
Which sin itself doesn’t prevent you from being a sought after prof or even an eminence grise — thanks for calling to mind the David Baltimore saga!
Duesberg’s a better analogy to Yoo, will comment if someone doesn’t beat me to it this evening.
— Sanjay · Apr 23, 05:50 PM · #
“…what Yoo did is surely a lesser academic sin than (say) publishing falsified data.”
I see your point, but I think you are wrong in pedestiranizing Yoo’s sin. I think providing legal cover for governemnt torture (which is what I think the evidence shows he did) is pretty high up on the list of sins, way higher that falsifying data. If the University looked into it and found to their satisfaction that he did this, then he ought to go. I don’t think it is correct to hold academic freedom as a higher value than judicial ethics when the ethical breech is so large.
Of course, it would prbably be a huge hassle to fire him right now. There would be lawsuits and all kinds of political fall out. It is probably easier for the dean to wait and see what changes the elections bring and if there is going to be a congression or justice department investigation.
But, if I were the dean I would fire him, based on what I know now, if for nothing else than simply moral grounds. He’s an accomplice to torture. Why would I want someone like that working for me?
— cw · Apr 23, 06:22 PM · #
I just read about Dusenbergs “sin” and I totally disagree with you. Being wrong about the cause of aids is not alanogous to Yoo’s sin, as I see his sin. From what I’ve read the evidence shows that the Bush admin approved torture at the highest levels and that the gov was tortureing people BEFORE Yoo wrote his opinions. They needed those opinions becasue they knew they were breaking the law and needed cover to shield them and thier subbordanates form prosecution. The admin. could not get anyone at the higher levels to provide them cover so they ended up with Yoo who was a lower level nobody. That’s not a wong theory, or poorly reasoned but good-faith lawyering, that is a huge ethical breech on the most damaging kind. Rule of law is one of the absolute foundations of this country. I know what Yoo did is done often (though not for such an egregious end) but UC Berkely is under no obligation to be cynical here.
— cw · Apr 23, 06:33 PM · #
No, it’s exactly analogous. A government was clinging to goofy theories which were killing people. Duesberg then wonderfully provided cover. But actually it’s more than the AIDS stuff, there’ve been issues with fundamental ability to teach the discipline, which is really the academic argument (why is this a UC concern, not a criminal one)? Duesberg basically isn’t allowed to teach anymore at UCB. Again, more if I get work off my desk.
— Sanjay · Apr 23, 07:22 PM · #
Well, I don’t know enough about Duesberg. If they are analogous, then they both shoudl go.
— cw · Apr 23, 09:08 PM · #
My point. And remember, when we say what Yoo said was legally wrong, we’re on tricky ground — when we say what Duesberg says is wrong, we’re talking about something provable by experiment. And I think there’re a lot more where that came from (indeed I can think of some, I just pulled one, now two, names off the top of my head).
Sorry no details yet, we just had a new baby, I’m a bit underslept…
— Sanjay · Apr 24, 01:51 PM · #
“I’m a bit underslept…”
That last for about 8 years. Then it starts to be hard to get them up.
Anyway, I think there is plenty of evidence surrounding the creation of the documents that show the memos’ purpose was to provide cover, not provide sound legal advice. Certainly enough to fire someone. Although, like I said, it would raise a shit storm.
And I guess one of my main points (got to be workman-like here) was that this kind of case was rare. You say you thought up one or two off the top of your head. In my experience, that one or two of the top of your head is usually it. You think the fact that you can remember a case at all suggest that there are a bunch more out there. Instead the it’s rarity of the case made it stick in your memory. But obviously, I could be wrong.
— cw · Apr 24, 04:13 PM · #
Yeah, it’s our second.
Not at all. Sure, they asked him to write the memos to provide cover, but so what? They could still represent — and probably do, based on everything he’s said — his fer-real (if goofy) legal opinion.
And, nope — because that one or two of the top of my head, is in my (rather tightly defined) field (and, thinking more on it, three or four other names come to mind without working the ol’ grey matter).
— Sanjay · Apr 24, 08:37 PM · #
I disagree. The timeline plus some things that are coming out are telling. Plus, just becasue you write a legal opinion doesn’t mean you get to do whatever it says. If Yoo had written an opinion that said the admin could murder senators that spoke out agianst the war, anyone participating in the actions would obviously be vulnerable to murder charges, Yoo included, as an accessory. It’s the same with torture. It’s my understanding that there were similar cases in Nurenburg. And again, we are talking about the UC firing him, not hanging him. Probably don’t need to meet absolout legal standards. If the Universtiy conducted an investigation and were satisfied of his guilt, then out with him. I’m not saying it would be easy. I’m just saying I don’t see that it is unworkable or a bad idea or even a slippery slope due to the particular egregiousness of Yoo’s actions.
— cw · Apr 24, 10:25 PM · #