Bluff, Called
Well, the vote is still open, so we don’t know the final outcome, and the leadership might still strongarm a majority.
But if I were a member of the Democratic Leadership, I would not be pushing too hard. If this vote fails, the GOP is the reason. The Democrats met the Administration more than halfway, and the GOP leadership could not deliver the promised 80 votes. Tomorrow, the Democrats introduce their own bill, pass it on a party-line vote, and dare the Administration to veto.
There are lots and lots of reasons not to like this bill. But most of those reasons are Democratic talking points. The GOP alternative proposal was borderline illiterate.
I’m writing this in haste, without a lot of reflection. But the whole way this has played out has been something of a watershed moment for me. There is only one party in Congress that thinks we are in a financial crisis, only one party in Congress with a functioning leadership.
Written in haste, maybe, but not without reflection. Right on.
— Jim Manzi · Sep 29, 06:25 PM · #
If McCain can’t deliver this vote (and I understand why he can’t; the House repubs hate him), then last week’s stunt (1) was a major blunder and (2) has exposed him as a failure, even to people like me who admire him personally and want, want, want, to believe that he would be an ok president.
— J Mann · Sep 29, 06:32 PM · #
This is a failure of Pelosi’s leadership, pure and simple. This bloated bill failed to pass because a tidal wave of calls and letters to the Congress demanded it fail. If Pelosi is the portrait in courage the author depicts, let her ram through an alternative…and suffer at the ballot box.
— T. Schroeder · Sep 29, 06:50 PM · #
I’m not sure you can call Pelosi a functioning leader either; 95 (!) Democrats voted against the bail-out. If you look at the final tally you will find a lot of PUMA types among them.
— Jeff Westcott · Sep 29, 06:57 PM · #
The problem with your scenario is that the Democrats have absolutely no idea what to do if left on their own. All Pelosi knows how to do is add garbage to existing bills, she is incapable of creating anything on her own. Ditto for Reid who announced last week that he had no ideas and would defer to Bush on this one.
This failure is 100% Pelosi. She should not have called the vote without securing the votes, and 60% of her party does not count.
— Paul · Sep 29, 06:57 PM · #
All of the pundits both from the left and the right do not understand the breadth and depth of the anger of the American people!They think they are smarter than us! We know a bad deal when we see one. Enough of socialism! Let the markets work.
— Brian · Sep 29, 07:03 PM · #
Only one party with a functioning leadership?
By my count, Pelosi couldn’t even get 60% of her membership to support the bill. In my own state, that means that long-time Democratic party stalwarts Lloyd Doggett and Sheila Jackson-Lee repudiated their own leader.
— Guvnah · Sep 29, 07:09 PM · #
This is a no-confidence vote in John Boehner if ever there was one. And it’s taking the GOP’s belief in the wisdom of Main Street over the pointy-headed elites way too far. The Republicans hardly look a profile in courage today. More like a party in complete disarray. I agree with this post 100%.
— Lev · Sep 29, 07:12 PM · #
“Let the markets work.”
Brian, isn’t that what got us into this mess in the first place?
— James F. Elliott · Sep 29, 07:13 PM · #
If the Democrats lost 90+ votes for this bill, what makes you think that they have the votes to pass any bailout blll?
No, they’ll make sme cosmetic tweaks and next time Pelosi will say something nice instead of telling a bunch of partisan lies. Then it will pass.
— jdestro · Sep 29, 07:14 PM · #
If Speaker Pelosi had kept her mouth shut it is likely that this package would have passed by a few votes. When she turned made this vote into a rabidly partisan attack on the minority she assured that this would not pass.
— David Bethune · Sep 29, 07:22 PM · #
James,
No, the free market did not work. In capatilism there are winners and losers. Part of capitalism is failure. Fraud is what worked for Raines at Freddy and Fannie. Fraudulenty providing loans to people who did not qualify is at the heart of the issue. The flag was raised 4 years ago and all of the Democrats said there was no problem.
— Brian · Sep 29, 07:29 PM · #
It did not help AT ALL when Nancy Pelosi came out BEFORE THE VOTE and threw President Bush and the Republicans under the bus. Fine, you want us to support the bailout for the crisis YOU DEMOCRATS CREATED while hammering Republicans as the VILLAINS, while voters are 70% against this, then PASS IT YOURSELF.
If Nancy Pelosi, Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, and the rest of these Democrats would simply back off, and would possibly make a behind-the-scenes pact to LAY OFF THE BLAME GAME until after the elections, then we would pass something. Not that you can trust these guys to honor anything.
I don’t expect anything soon. In the meantime, I’ve just heard that one of my clients is in danger of losing access to their entire corporate operating bank account as their primary bank looks like it’s failing.
— Dean · Sep 29, 07:30 PM · #
The bill was defeated and the Stock Market lost 700 points. I guess Republicans got their free market solution. Conservative Republicans have been campaigning on tax cuts and small government for so long they simply cannot stand to live in a world where Ronald Reagan nostrums of the superiority of the unregulated free market do not prevail. It is fascinating that Republicans are using Democratic talking points to oppose this bill — about Wall Street Fat Cats getting away Scott Free at the expense of the little guy. But the real reason for GOP defections is that they know public support for an unregulated free market took a big hit and they are determined not to let the government solve this problem. What they fear is a the New Deal II.
We may be in for some severe economic pain ahead in order for the GOP to prove its point.
And don’t be deceived by the 95 Dems who voted against this. Those are like garbage points in basketball once the game’s outcome is no longer in doubt. Next time if the vote is close expect those Dems to vote with the leadership. Democrats have every reason not to vote for this. The meltdown occured on the Republican’s watch. It was a problem of Wall Street — a Republican constituency. And the solution that was offered (bailing out Wall Street) offended the natural Democratic position as party of the little guy. So, given the cooperation Bush got from Democrats, voters really need to ask themselves which party puts country ahead of party.
— Ted Frier · Sep 29, 07:56 PM · #
Historic GOP blunder… I am a staunch fiscal conservative. Unfortunately, I think the uninformed public will blame Republicans (just like Herbert Hoover was blamed, justly or unjustly). Nancy Pelosi knows this, wants no deal passed, wants the market to crash—libs can successfully blame the GOP. She deliberately outraged House GOP members with her inflammatory speech. Conservatives took the bait, empowering Dems to get a huge November landslide—and a far worse, radical-leftist/socialist package next year. God help us.
— Bill · Sep 29, 07:57 PM · #
Are David Bethune and Dean actually claiming that there are a bunch of Republicans who were planning to vote for the bill, but then Nancy Pelosi gave a speech that hurt their feelings so they changed their mind?
— Jeff · Sep 29, 08:08 PM · #
I agree to a certain extent with the comments that surely some blame for the bill’s failing lies with the Dems. Pelosi and Obama failed to rally their party as much as McCain, Bush and Boehner rallied theirs.
But Noah is right, in that the Republicans had much more to lose. That the Dems can now push forward a non-compromise partisan bill seems likely. The Dem leadership can say that they gave non-partisanship a try, that the Repubs wouldn’t cooperate, and that we now need to address the crisis any way we can.
A question: I think I understand why Republicans wouldn’t vote for the bill, being against Federal expansion into the economy and all that. Not wise, I guess, but consistent with ideology. What did the Democrats not like? That the Housing Authority didn’t get a cut of the plan? Were they also against Federal expansion into the economy, basically allied with the Republican detractors?
— Blar · Sep 29, 08:08 PM · #
Can I call McCain an Asshole now?
— matoko_chan · Sep 29, 08:08 PM · #
The excuses I am reading are not going to fly this time. The “she said mean things” is a bit transparent. Nobody wants to blame the GOP for a market crash. As an independent, I think it is clear that the motto – Country first is just words. The GOP is partisan and there are few honest conservatives left; just excuse makers. I’m glad I got out when I did. It will be a long long time before the GOP sees my vote or another dime from me.
— Angela · Sep 29, 08:09 PM · #
“She deliberately outraged House GOP members with her inflammatory speech.”
Bull. If the Republicans didn’t pass something that is GOOD for the people that elected them because Pelosi hurted their widdle feewlings, then they shouldn’t be in office in the first place, the pathetic losers.
— Steph Mineart · Sep 29, 08:18 PM · #
Two thoughts:
1) The President of the United States has become the ultimate “empty suit”. A national crisis and Bush can’t get his own party to support his bill to save us from this mess. Unbelievable. He has treated congress, including his own party, like crap for 8 years so it is no surprise it has come to this, but what a time for his chickens to come home to roost.
2) Bipartisanship didn’t work so maybe it’s time for a partisan solution. Produce a bill the Democrats can be enthusiastic about—which would almost certainly include temporary nationalization of banks & businesses needing a bailout—and watch with glee as Bush without any other options signs it. It worked for the Swedes (who of course have no fears of socialism) when their financial system tanked, so let’s give it a try.
PS DOW now down over 750 pts.
— Doug in Chicago · Sep 29, 08:18 PM · #
the bipartisan agreement was that the dems deliver 120 votes.
they delivered 140.
epic fail for mccain, mr-reach-across-the-aisle.
he couldn’t deliver.
game over, dudes.
the rest is campfire songs.
— matoko_chan · Sep 29, 08:25 PM · #
If Democrats were willing to go along party lines, a nationalization proposal would probably pass. It’s not that they don’t know what to do, it’s that they don’t know what to offer that would get any kind of bipartisan support. The Republicans don’t know either or else they wouldn’t have suggested a plan that could be mistaken for something Palin cooked up.
But much of the failure of this bill with the public is how Paulson presented it. He’s just terrible as a politician (which I don’t think he’d take as an insult) and I’d be willing to bet that a majority of the public thinks it’s a plan to cut personal checks to the tune of $700B to financial executives. Unfortunately, Paulsons original presentation didn’t seem to rule that possibility out. One that narrative took hold, there’s just no undoing it.
Ultimately, the White House didn’t present a plan that was focused enough that the public could understand the limit of, Democrats don’t know how to amend that plan to get Republicans on board, and Republican lawmakers appear to have absolutely no plan to address the problem. So it dies in the chasms between Dems and the GOP and between the White House and voters.
— Martin · Sep 29, 08:26 PM · #
Does the next bill go to the Left (Sweden-esque nationalization of distressed financial firms) or to the illiterate bizarro-Right (capital gains tax cuts for distressed firms)?
I can’t see it going to the left, though i think it should.
I hope this story frames the closing chapter of the 1994 GOP Congressional Revolution. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out…
— rortybomb · Sep 29, 08:28 PM · #
the reason 95 Dems voted NAY is because the agreement between both parties is that it would be BIPARTISAN!!!!
the Dems deliverd half +1 to pass — as agreed!
DUH
— kelly · Sep 29, 08:39 PM · #
“And don’t be deceived by the 95 Dems who voted against this. Those are like garbage points in basketball once the game’s outcome is no longer in doubt.”
I guess that’s the New Liberal Math. Pelosi only needed a dozen of that 95 to pass the bill, so it’s insane to say that the game was no longer in doubt. Face facts – this was another Democratic party failure. And where was Obama in all of this? Has he taken a position one way or the other?
— jdestro · Sep 29, 08:39 PM · #
“the Dems deliverd half +1 to pass — as agreed”
No such agreement was made.
— jdestro · Sep 29, 08:42 PM · #
My eyes have opened to the GOP over the past 5 years. Once firmly Republican, I now see the GOP operation as a mafia-style organization.
Look at the facts, Dems in the house voted 60%-40% to get this bill passed. Meanwhile, 67% of the house GOP voted against this rescue bill. And why did they vote against it? Because their feelings were hurt.
The Dow plummets 778 points as a result.
If you want to blame Pelosi or the Dems, I’m afraid you have become too blind to see what is going on.
— Montana Blue · Sep 29, 08:48 PM · #
lol, that was the agreement.
FOX just said.
it doesnt matter tho.
read what Noah and Jim are saying….the dems can pass w/e they want now, and look like heroes after the 780 pt market drop.
those stupid republicans just gave them the perfect cover.
jdestro, its game over for Septugenarian Guy.
— matoko_chan · Sep 29, 08:52 PM · #
If the reps argument was they voted against it because it was a bad bill, fine. But that isn’t what they are saying. Their argument seems to be we knwo we needed this and wanted to vote for it but Pelosi hurt our feelings.
As for all you sayign it is the Dmes fault because ONLY 60% of them voted for it. Gte a clue. This is a poison pill that no one likes but knwo that they have to swallow and pass it. The deal the Reps made was bring the bill close enough to the center and we can give you enough votes to pass it. If the Dems wanted to go left with it they could get something that passed along party lines, but then they’d be saddled with all the blame since no one will be thrilled with it. Now that the bill failed and the markets tanked the Dems can pass something and say we tried to include the Reps but they wouldn’t play ball.
— Eric K · Sep 29, 08:56 PM · #
yup.
and the market lost 1.1 trillion in value.
which is 400 trillion more than the bailout.
awwww the po’ wittle repubs got their feelins hurrt.
there will be more a LOT more pain to spread around tomorrow.
get ready for that filibuster-proof majority you guys been dreadin.
lol!
— matoko_chan · Sep 29, 09:02 PM · #
“No such agreement was made.”
Bullshit. Bills like this don’t get to the floor without such an agreement. Pelosi promised 120 which was more than she should have needed to pass a bill offered by a Republican White House with a Republican presidential candidate who went as far as suspending his campaign in order to get it passed.
— Martin · Sep 29, 09:07 PM · #
and…..just wait until the Asian markets open.
— matoko_chan · Sep 29, 09:11 PM · #
pre-market opening on Asian markets…..down 10%.
biggest evah!
Ross, i choose door number three.
http://rossdouthat.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/09/three_scenarios.php
hahahaha
— matoko_chan · Sep 29, 09:24 PM · #
Brian, isn’t that what got us into this mess in the first place?
Shhhhhhh….
— Freddie · Sep 29, 09:27 PM · #
Look at Ross’ scenario three as a correction.
Purge the theocons and restore your libertarian principles.
— matoko_chan · Sep 29, 09:28 PM · #
“She deliberately outraged House GOP members with her inflammatory speech.”
Awww…poor babies! They flush our financial system down the proverbial toilet because the bad lady was mean to them ? I call bullsh*t.
— David H. · Sep 29, 09:35 PM · #
Where can I find the text of Nancy Pelosi’s speech?
— rakko · Sep 29, 09:44 PM · #
It mainly goes down to the refusal of Washington power players to take the case to the American people. This was deal that was struck with almost zero engagement with public opinion (partially because few wanted to commit to the general idea) When you have a 50 point swing in the polls depending on whether you call it a bailout or not, then you have no national leadership and widespread ignorance about the issue. People are making calls based on buzzwords. No one was making the attempt to answer the basic Katie Couric question: Why is this preferable to some gargantuan stimulus package? Bush gave a speech, but it was mainly fear mongering (“Do what I say or become a train-hopping hobo!”), as he usually does, and people aren’t buying it anymore.
Pelosi and Boehner weren’t the people to do the explaining; their job was to bring their caucuses along. Both failed, but Boehner failed a lot more.
— Colatina · Sep 29, 09:47 PM · #
I have to say, people saying it’s the Democrats’ fault are friggin idiots.
Here’s a quick summary of the issue: Voting for this bill was the responsible thing to do. It, however, is bad for anyone who votes for it (let’s take that as a given), or any members of groups that vote heavily for it.
The Democrats agreed to provide the bulk of the votes if the Republicans could get a large enough minority to support it to give Democrats the cover they needed; that way, neither party gets screwed because of the stupidity of voters. The Republicans failed to even provide that minority (of 70 members or so); the Democrats exceeded what they were supposed to.
Could the Democrats have strong-armed 12 members? Who knows. But it’s at least as likely that Republicans could have strong-armed 12 of theirs. And that would have met their quota, while Democrats already had met theirs. Republicans thought, however, that Democrats would offer themselves as martyrs so that Republicans could run against the “Pelosi-Bush” plan or whatever hackish attack they were going to use.
Maybe Democrats should have offered themselves as martyrs. As much as I’d like a strong Democratic majority next year, I also don’t want a second Great Depression. But if any blame falls on Democrats for this, far more should fall on House Republicans.
— Zephyrus · Sep 29, 10:53 PM · #
O Republicans
You will be cast out to wander in the wilderness for 40 years.
Until the Technological Singularity arrives to succor you.
Best transform yourselves from the anti-science party to the pro-science party.
;)
— matoko_chan · Sep 29, 10:57 PM · #
Brian,
“No, the free market did not work.”
Yeah, that was kind of my point. That poop don’t work except in the fanciful world of theoretical mathematics.
Bill,
“radical-leftist/socialist package”
WTF? Where does all this “nationalization” talk come from? All of a sudden a Democrat must be a frigging closet communist? I’m so confused. When did regulation equal socialism?
Some conservatives make my liberal brain hurt. And not in a “Oh, my intellectual faculties have been pummeled into submission by your superior reasoning!” kind of way.
— James F. Elliott · Sep 29, 11:27 PM · #
to rakko:
From CQ Transcripts Wire, via the Washington Post:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/29/AR2008092901699.html
— Leon Marr · Sep 29, 11:50 PM · #
Republican apologists. Do you realize the maddness that you spew in blaming Pelosi, or are you so deluded by your self-serving partisanship that you can’t even remember the reality twisted by your rationalizations? Pelosi made it clear, very clear, many times, as did your own Harry Reid, that the Democratic party would not pass this bill with a party line vote. They made it clear that the democratic party could not do this, that Democratic representatives needed to know that this was a bill supported by both sides or they wouldn’t vote for it for the simplest of political reasons; electability. The facts of this situation are clear; Gingrich laid out last week how the Republican party could use this vote to drive out Democrats by making it a party line vote, and the House Republicans did exactly what he said to do.
The House Republicans, faced with a genuine economic crisis, decided to play politics and go back on their word, to vote their party instead of their country. The House leadership said they had the votes to get the bill on the floor, then they went back on their deal in the middle of the vote, forcing the Dems to scrabble and get enough nays to kill it. That is why this bill failed, and when you can’t use your atm or credit card to pay for things in a few weeks, it will be your party at whose feet the blame lies, you deluded fools.
— Julian · Sep 30, 12:36 AM · #
Re: What they fear is a the New Deal II.
Then they have less foresight than my cats. This was their last, best chance to avoid massive governmental activism on a scale not seen since WWII. And if they provoke an honest-to-God economic collapse (or even the appearance of one) they’ll get New Deal II on steroids. Obama should send the GOP House a thank-you note: they just handed the election to him. In fact George Bush owes them a thank-you note too: they have made him look like a wise and capable president and if the shyte truly does hit the fan, Bush won’t be taking the blame, the wingnut caucus will.
Re: That is why this bill failed, and when you can’t use your atm or credit card to pay for things in a few weeks
Assuming we have electric power and a functioning Internet, ATMs and credit cards will still work. Even at the worst of the Great Depression the banks did not all fail at once. Yes, we’re going to see the FDIC get pretty busy in the weeks ahead, and there will be a lot more cases of shaky banks being gobbled up by bigger banks (watch Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley to make good on their new bank-holding status, among other things). But absent nuclear war or asteroid imapcts we aren’t going to take a giant step back to the 1600s.
— JonF · Sep 30, 01:24 AM · #
I’m a staunch fiscal and social conservative, and very patriotic. When McCain stood up against torture, I applauded him; when he caved and embraced torture, he disgusted me. When I read how he dumped his wife after she had an accident, and married some young girl he was having an affair, it disgusted me. But neither of those are truly significant compared to fiscal policy, in my mind. The fiscal disaster in Iraq, the $10 trillian debt explosion, for these I want someone fiscally responsible, and I don’t care much if it is a guy who is screwing around.
When McCain said he was stopping campaigning to fly to Washington to push the bailout through, I was interested, but withheld judgement, as I am inclined to dislike the bailout (being a staunch fiscal conservative). But at least he was engaging instead of screwing with campaign politics — I didn’t see Obama engaging.
But then I read how McCain did not fly to Washington and had not read the proposal. I was a bit disappointed. Then I read how he later did fly in and sabotaged the bailout. I was surprised, but was considering that perhaps he was going to stand up as a maverick and support fiscal conservatism. But, then he flip-flopped again and supported the bailout. Now I’ve lost all fiscal respect for him. :(
It also worries me that McCain sided with Bush, and the Republican majority opposed both of them. Obama sided with Bush, and the Democratic majority supported him. That makes it appear that Republicans will not support McCain, but Democrats will support Obama. Not a good sign — at least, not for McCain.
— Paul · Sep 30, 01:25 AM · #
I can get behind conservatives celebrating the defeat of the bill on free-market principals…. and I can also get behind conservatives lamenting their party’s failure to deliver the necessary votes. The bill is a gamble, it’s costly, it may save us from the brink, it may not. No one can know. Either position is reasonable.
But how the hell can you be a conservative who is for the bill while blaming this on Pelosi and the democrats? Count the votes – twice as many democrats voted for it as republicans. If you believe the bill was the right thing to do, then the stalwarts of your party were victorious. 133 heroes of the Republic. Be happy. If you believe the defeated bill was our only salvation – THEN YOUR PARTY SCREWED IT UP. It’s not Nancy Pelosi’s job to whip republicans in line!!!! She got a majority of her members to vote for it, the republican leaders didn’t even get close to that.
Unbelievable. Take some friggin responsibility for yourselves and your party!!! Be a conservative! Act like one! What happened to the GOP? They used to be all about responsibility and owning up to one’s choices. Now they just bitch and whine and lie. Which is why I am voting for a Democrat for the first time in my life.
— Mark · Sep 30, 02:39 AM · #
whoops I meant “If you believe the bill was the wrong thing to do.”
— Mark · Sep 30, 02:44 AM · #
This week’s sign of the apocalypse: An American Scene thread cleared over 40 comments.
— Will · Sep 30, 03:18 AM · #
Talking Points Memo has the transcript.
That is nonsense! I listened to Pelosi’s speech on NPR AND read the transcript in case I didn’t notice that I passed out from boredom. Hardly anything to write home about. “Platitude, platitude, blah blah, arn’t we great, yada yada, isn’t wall street bad, wuwa wuwa wuwa.” Republicans must be very thin skinned! “I’m going to destroy America’s economy because Nancy wasn’t nice to me!!! Boo hoo!!!” They need to grow a pair!
— Colleen · Sep 30, 03:59 AM · #
“They need to grow a pair!”
You are refering to testicles, right? Because I think it would be cooler if they would grow breasts.
— cw · Sep 30, 08:48 AM · #
My hypothesis is that there is a statistically significant IQ gap between the parties. Do you think I can get research funding to test it?
;)
— matoko_chan · Sep 30, 10:46 AM · #
The spin coming out from Camp McCain and what pathetic dregs serve for the republican intelligentsia these days (present company excepted) is that Pelosi, Obama, and the dems screwed this up.
See, McArdle, Allahpundit, Rove, Dr. Reynolds, etc.
I guess if you are stupid enough to believe that Palin could adequately serve as president after her Couric interviews, then you are probably stupid enough to fall for that too.
— matoko_chan · Sep 30, 11:04 AM · #
Watch the markets rebound today. They’ll regain 400-500 points — at least. I betcha.
— PRP · Sep 30, 01:38 PM · #
And how long will this “rebound” last, comrade PRP?
hehehe. we will bury you.
— Comrade PureGuesswork · Sep 30, 02:26 PM · #
Noah, you’ll have to elaborate some more, if you don’t mind. You yourself have voiced problems with the bill that was proposed, and I didn’t think of any of your objections as “Democratic talking points”—nor do I think of the arguments of Daniel Larison or Reihan over at Forbes.com were, either. (Maybe I’m being unfair; I think of Democratic talking points being things like salary caps on CEOs, etc.) What should I take to be the great lesson of this vote? Should I care that the Democrats have the leadership to mobilize 60% of their members? Should I take reticence to prop up bad assets with taxpayer money to mean someone doesn’t think there’s a crisis? I tend to think that it’s a crisis we’ve earned. If we wanted to avoid it, we had to change things ten years ago. $700 billion now is like building a parachute out of garbage—garbage we’ll have to live with once we land.
— Chris Floyd · Sep 30, 02:45 PM · #
Noah here is the punishment for the GOP cowardly treachery.
http://www.politico.com/blogs/thecrypt/0908/Signs_of_optimism_on_bailout.html
now the GOP will have to put 110-60 = 40 MORE republican seats at risk.
— matoko_chan · Sep 30, 03:06 PM · #
I for one welcome Our New Liberal Alignment Overlords.
— matoko_chan · Sep 30, 03:12 PM · #
I would like to know what connection George Bush has with the investors that are giving money to the Banks. Who is buying these failed mortgages and are they connected to the oil industry. Could it be that the lie that was sent to Washington by George Bush to Bail out the financial industry is meant to recover funds for George Bush’s friends and the oil industry?
— Dave · Oct 1, 02:28 AM · #