Empiricism and political debates
TAS hero Ross Douthat makes the point that the preference for small government or Europe-style welfare states will not be settled by empirical research, because they depend as much on one’s philosophical beliefs as on hard data:
And as long as [American and European societies remain broadly stable and prosperous], where you come out on the debates over whether we should prefer the continent’s sturdier safety nets to America’s lower unemployment and higher growth rates (or the continent’s more equible provision of health care to America’s lead in health-care innovation, or what-have-you) will ultimately boil down to values as much as it will to what the numbers say.
Obviously, Ross is right that such broad debates cannot be solved with facts and figures alone, and that they do boil down to values. But I also think Ross may be discounting the way that a series of tactical victories can lead to a strategic victory. Smaller debates than “Do we want to be Sweden or Hong Kong?” can and are decided mostly by facts and in turn, these debates influence the broader debate.
Look at tax policy. As proponents of President Obama’s tax increases keep repeating, their goal is only to go back to the level of taxation of the prosperous 1990s. No one is suggesting going back to top rates of more than 70% that were once considered commonsensical both by Eisenhower Republicans and LBJ Democrats. This is not because of Republican obstructionism or robber barons showering Congress with money, but simply because the debate about the destructive impact of confiscatory top income tax rates has been settled in fact, both by economic research and by reforms of the 1980s in the US, Great Britain and elsewhere.
Similarly, the few protectionist provisions tucked into stimulus legislation come nowhere near overturning the broadly pro-free trade consensus that has been painstakingly built over the past 20 years. This is in large part because the evidence in favor of free trade is so overwhelming that opponents of free trade can only fight at the margins, with things like buy american provisions and obstructing CAFTA. (Of course, if the Obama Administration’s protectionist moves degenerate into an international trade war I’ll look like a fool, but by then I’ll be too busy stocking up on canned goods and ammunition to care.)
And these tactical victories have succeeded in shifting the parameters of the broader discussion of economic matters much to the right (or in a more pro-market direction, if you prefer) than where it was, say, 40 years ago, both in the US and in Europe. And this shift has a lot to do with values, but it also has a lot to do with how so many of the smaller debates within this very large debate have been empirically settled in a pro-market direction.
And this is true despite the financial meltdown. The crisis has shifted the center on economic debates much to the left, but that place is still much to the right of where the center was 40 years ago.
As Ross himself is fond of pointing out, and rightly so, in debates on issues like embryonic stem-cell research, it is actually conservatives who have the best grasp of the actual science. The debate on the personhood of the unborn may never be settled in fact (or, depending on your point of view, is self-evidently settled as a matter of fact), but the smaller debates within this broad meaning-of-life discussion may (perhaps only in 20 years time) be settled in fact and, in turn, alter the direction of the broader debate.
At least, it’s worth counting on.
Good points. In general, the market works. Especially when it is honest. Most everyone has figured this out now. What has not worked is supply side economics. Looking at GDP and debt numbers, it is pretty clear that it is an abject failure. The last 30 years should make us want to revise our economic theories and our tax system IMO.
Steve
— steve · Mar 14, 07:16 AM · #
Excellent post
— Steve C · Mar 14, 09:42 AM · #
The analogy to stem-cells only complicates things. While the ethical issue of tax rates is clearly connected to their empirical effect on the economy, it’s hard to see what conservatives being “right” about, say, adult stem cells being just as therapeutically useful as embryonic stem cells would have to do with the personhood of collections of embryonic stem cells. (In fact, the closer the similarity between adult and embryonic stem cells is, the more complicated the argument for personhood becomes.)
— Consumatopia · Mar 14, 11:49 AM · #
<i> it’s hard to see what conservatives being “right” about, say, adult stem cells being just as therapeutically useful as embryonic stem cells would have to do with the personhood of collections of embryonic stem cells. (In fact, the closer the similarity between adult and embryonic stem cells is, the more complicated the argument for personhood becomes.)
</i>
that adult stem cells appear to be therapeutically useful is a difference from embryonic stem cells.
— Adam Greenwood · Mar 14, 12:03 PM · #
I guess when one says “conservatives have the best grasp of the actual science” one should be clear that that’s only in general.
Plus there’s a larger point here in that if you really conclude from your ethical axioms alone that embryonic stem cell research is not only immoral but useless, then that really is opposition to capital-S Science. It’s one thing to oppose certain experimental/therapeutic practices as immoral, but to oppose certain descriptive assertions as immoral is unscientific.
— Consumatopia · Mar 14, 12:51 PM · #
Consulatopia: You’re obviously right that it’s harder to reach ethical conclusions from the facts of stem cell science than to decide on an optimal tax policy. I wasn’t trying to suggest otherwise. I was just trying to make the point that just because grand philosophical debates are very important to decide matters of public policy, so are the smaller questions within those debates that can be mostly decided using facts, e.g. what is an optimal tax policy, or is it really wise to use taxpayer funds to subsidize an ethically murky type of research when a less dubious alternative seems to hold more promise to reach the same goals. And perhaps more importantly, that these broad debates are so crucial doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t fight those smaller, but in aggregate very important, skirmishes within those debates.
— PEG · Mar 14, 01:42 PM · #
Ah, I see what you mean.
— Consumatopia · Mar 14, 05:59 PM · #
Matako is clearly a troll, so I normally don’t like responding to him/her, but the “ONE SINGLE EXAMPLE” challenge is too easy to answer, since Bill Clinton was just in the news for talking to Sanjay Gupta about “unfertilized embryos.”
— Blar · Mar 15, 07:03 PM · #
Douthat: “And as long as [American and European societies remain broadly stable and prosperous], where you come out on the debates over whether we should prefer the continent’s sturdier safety nets to America’s lower unemployment and higher growth rates (or the continent’s more equible provision of health care to America’s lead in health-care innovation, or what-have-you) will ultimately boil down to values as much as it will to what the numbers say.”
Why does America have greater medical innovation and higher costs for healthcare? Because we subsidize the low prices that Canada and Europe get on their drugs and other medical technologies. If we had an equitable health care systems the costs would be evenly distributed and they would pay their fair share—as long as innovation is profitable people will do it. It’s only in America that we think the poor should have the burden of subsidizing European lifestyles. There’s some values for ya’.
Look, the idea that conservatives or liberals “understand science better” is ridiculous on face. But the way many conservatives have conflated basic research and medical cures when talking about adult or embryonic stem cells is just plain embarrassing. The very notion of adult stem cells being better or equivalent than embryonic stem cells requires that we actually know how embryonic stem cells work. You may be all gung-ho about adult stem cells as medical treatment, but you would be crazy to put them in your body until we understand differentiation fully. How do we learn the natural pathways of differentiation so that we can know that adult stem cell treatments won’t simply turn into tumors? Studying embryos, of course. That is what matako_chan means by saying that they are complimentary: even if we never turn embryonic stem cells into treatment, understanding embryonic stem cells is absolutely necessary for safely and effectively using adult stem cells. It’s really quite basic but I have never seen a single conservative commenter on these issues point it out.
— Loneoak · Mar 15, 09:48 PM · #
Uh, you may wish to check with the Discovery Institute, the global warming deniers, scientists studying the efficacy of morning-after pills, and, oh, I don’t know, the Catholic Church in the time of Galileo on that. Or, maybe, you could just realize that you’ve made a claim that has not ever, in fact, been true.
Ah, yes, noted biochemist, embyrologist, and bioethicist Bill Clinton. Well, he’s certainly who liberals look to on scientific matters.
— Chet · Mar 16, 12:46 AM · #
Wow, I have a knack for attracting trolls. I’m sure that’s not a good thing.
Ok. When I said “conservatives” have a better grasp of the science, I meant “smart conservative commentators”, not young Earth creationists, whom liberals love to obsess over but who are infetisimal in actual numbers or importance. Obviously some liberals have a better grasp of the science than some conservatives, but if you look back to the debates over stem cell research, you’ll find that the intelligent conservative critique was actually more grounded in the actual facts of embryonic stem cell research than most liberal commentators, who kept to loud appeals to SCIENCE!
— PEG · Mar 16, 03:26 AM · #
s/infetisimal/infinitesimal
— PEG · Mar 16, 03:27 AM · #
I knew someone would try to move the goalposts on this one. We were talking about liberals and conservatives in general, not liberal scientists versus conservative scientists.
I hope you do not imagine that only scientists can comment on science policy, but in case you do, it’s worth pointing out that Dr. Gupta sat through the whole thing without ever correcting his guest. Presumably Gupta knows what an embryo is, so I can only assume he let it slide without comment so that Clinton’s political point was undisturbed.
Also, my quicklist on issues where conservatives are clearly better on science than liberals: genetic engineering, biometrics, the countless concerns over supposedly carcinogenic products (from high-tension power lines to cell phones). There are others I’m sure I could find. I would actually add stem cell research and the more apocalyptic visions of global warming to the list, but I guess that is more controversial.
Lastly, Galileo, seriously? Galileo was simply a victim of intra-ecclesiastical politics, with some church factions supporting him, and others not. It was not even a case of science versus tradition, let alone conservatism versus liberalism in any way that is meaningful today.
— Blar · Mar 16, 09:49 AM · #
@Loneoak: That’s a fair point about how embryonic and adult stem cell research can complement each other (I don’t know enough to propose an alternative), but I never hear liberal commentators in the main argue like that either. It’s always about making Christopher Reeves walk and curing Alzheimer’s.
Here is how I learned that most liberal politicians were uninterested in the science of stem cell research. A few years ago, the Democratic congress was proposing a bill for embryonic stem cell funding. The Republican minority introduced a bill to fund adult stem cells as well, obviously meant to be a competing bill, but there was nothing to keep both bills from passing, as they were funding exclusive kinds of research. Nevertheless, Congress passed the former (which Bush vetoed) and not the latter.
Which meant the Democratic Congress passed the funding of embryonic stem cell research to the exclusion of research on adult stem cells. Which meant they didn’t care about the complementarity that you discuss, didn’t care that the only notable successes in stem cell research to date derived from adult stem cells. It was entirely to score points in the culture wars, science be damned.
— Blar · Mar 16, 10:08 AM · #
Matako, you have half a dozen posts in this thread, and in nearly all of them you have called someone a liar, without evidence. Why should anyone imagine you can be persuaded?
— Blar · Mar 16, 10:12 AM · #
From my perspective “smart conservative commentators” is the group better described as “infinitesimal in actual numbers” as compared to creationists, given that almost 50% of Americans deny the scientific theory of evolution.
But, at any rate, you’ve given away the game – you’re only talking about the conservatives who don’t reject a large body of modern science, and comparing them only to liberals who do. How is that an argument anyone is supposed to take seriously? Would you take it seriously if I said that “liberals, in general, are smarter than conservatives” and then, when challenged, tried to argue that I was only referring to liberals with IQ higher than 100 and conservatives with IQ lower than that?
Of course not.
One of those “scientific facts” being, I assume, your absurd position that an 8-cell blastocyst is a complete human being, worthy of the same full rights and protections as a newborn infant.
I’m sorry but I took part in the debate, informally of course, and the last thing I remember being true about it was that “the science was on the side of the conservatives.” Even if that were true it would be a first.
Oh, I’m sorry – I thought we were talking about science. The truth is, science education is so crappy in this country, both on the right and on the left, that examples of persons completely failing to understand the science abound on both sides. But the simple truth is that the scientific community lines up behind positions described in our politics as “liberal” – evolution, global warming, birth control, heliocentrism – and conservatives usually seem to be on the other side. Hypothetical “smart conservatives” notwithstanding. (Well, or not. Even the smartest conservative I know is almost always wrong when it comes to science.)
— Chet · Mar 16, 11:24 AM · #
matoko, your future comments will be more civil or I will ban you.
— Alan Jacobs · Mar 16, 11:32 AM · #
Does economics fall under the definition of science for the purposes of this debate?
— DKH · Mar 16, 06:16 PM · #
I wish matoko_chan would get banned. This was a perfectly interesting post that I wished to comment on, and then I see that it’s been ruined by a troll.
All I really wanted to say:
“And as long as [American and European societies remain broadly stable and prosperous]”
That’s an awfully big “as long as”. As soon as one collapses, I imagine the other will take that as all the empirical evidence they need about What Not To Do.
— Ethan C. · Mar 16, 11:52 PM · #
Then we must discard some philosophical beliefs.
— JA · Mar 17, 12:19 AM · #
PEG, I’m sorry you got Chan’d. However, I would like to read a good conservative take on the issue of stem cell science/ethics that you endorse.
Thanks in advance, and good post.
— JA · Mar 17, 12:25 AM · #
Jesus, what have I unleashed?
Has anyone noticed that my post was actually not about stem cell research?
I won’t respond to comments visibly motivated by contempt and/or rage, and I’d like to apologize to the serious commenters for having their points drowned in this sea of bile.
JA: That’s a good question, I’ll look for a specific post and put it here.
Ethan C: Yeah, obviously. Although, barring some uneforeseen consequence of the financial meltdown, I don’t think we’ll see a “collapse” rather than a long slide, that people will debate about. Europe’s GDP growth never fully recovered from the first oil shocks so in a sense you could argue that Europe collapsed 30 years ago and is just running on steam, but many people would take issue with that notion (including me, probably).
— PEG · Mar 17, 09:33 AM · #
No, you’ll just make them.
— Chet · Mar 22, 03:49 PM · #