Activist Judges Irrationally Revoke Standing of Conservatives!!
On Monday evening, Dan Riehl and I did an hour long Skype debate moderated by Scott Payne at The League of Ordinary Gentlemen. Though Dan and I disagree about the tone taken by certain talk radio hosts, he conducted himself like a consummate gentleman in our conversation, and I thank him for the experience.
One question we discussed: what it is that makes someone a conservative? It isn’t actually a subject I’m passionate about, as I’m inclined to take people at their word when they tell me their political philosophy, but because so many people obsess about the subject, turning half their conversations into a discussion about whether the speaker is conservative, or what the conservative thing to do is, it’s a conversation I’ve had with a lot of people. Naturally, few of them agree on the answer, which only underscores how absurd it is to pretend that there is one universally agreed upon definition, as opposed to a lot of different branches growing from a common trunk.
As best I can tell, Dan thinks that Ronald Reagan was a conservative, that people who favor an economy free of government interference are conservatives, and that religious conservatives who dissent from the Club for Growth orthodoxy are perpetrating a fraud if they call themselves conservative. Never mind that these folks don’t actually hide their supposedly heretical views, and are very upfront about where they stand on any specific matter you ask them about. They are still somehow being duplicitous or at least misleading if they invoke the c-word as a general descriptor.
At least that’s my best guess about Dan’s views. I’m forced to extrapolate a bit, because when pressed he wouldn’t actually offer any precise definition of conservatism, or clarify what it is specifically that make David Frum or Rod Dreher faux-conservatives. It seems to me that Dan doesn’t actually possess any coherent definition of conservatism, which would be fine, as it really isn’t necessary to have one, unless you make yourself an arbiter of the word’s proper use. How is it that he can judge whether anyone is running afoul of the rules when he refuses to articulate and defend any? Until he does better than “conservatives like free markets,” I don’t think he should be taken seriously when he pontificates on matters of ideological identity (especially since David Frum, Will Wilkinson and Denmark also like free markets). Relying on one’s gut rather than clearly thought out guidelines in classifying people is the surest path to irrational mis-characterizations and prejudiced results.
Joe Carter is another guy who I’ve spoken to about what it is that makes someone a conservative. His answer is basically that Russel Kirk’s definition is a good one. He isn’t alone. A lot of people on the right invoke Kirk. But don’t tell Robert Stacy McCain.
Conor wants to define conservatism as “what I like,” or, “a philosophy espoused by writers I like.” He cannot separate his admiration of, inter alia, Andrew Sullivan from his own self-conception as “conservative.” It’s fan-boy politics. Sully is a student of Oakeshott, therefore Conor name-checks Oakeshott. Dreher constantly invokes Russell Kirk, therefore Conor name-checks Kirk. It’s as if Conor has been studying his pledge book in preparation for initiation into a fraternity.
Wait, I’m confused. Isn’t behaving as if I’m pledging a fraternity the Robert Stacy McCain test for being a real American? Just a few weeks ago, I was told the cool kids wake up at 6:30 am on the porch of the ATO house. Now I’m being mocked for being a good pledge?
I won’t take offense, since it’s transparently dense to think that the only reason anyone would name check Russel Kirk in a conversation about conservative philosophy is because Rod Dreher invokes him. Or let’s talk about Michael Oakeshott. Political theory books deem him one of the most important conservative philosophers of the 20th Century. He was the guest of honor at National Review’s 20th anniversary celebration. But anyone who invokes his name as one among many diverse thinkers in a centuries old tradition? Well, they must just be doing it to mimic Andrew Sullivan.
RSM goes on to ask, “Why is it that none of these ‘dissident’ conservatives can be bothered to read Hayek or Mises?” For heaven’s sake, I haven’t merely read Hayek, I’ve read him four times, and written a white paper for The Claremont Institute that invokes him in every section. Of course, it’s really more fair to call him a classical liberal, seeing as how that’s what he called himself, going so far as to write an essay called “Why I am Not a Conservative.” (Given the concessions he made to the idea of social welfare I wouldn’t be surprised if Mark Levin called him a socialist.) Hayek made a powerful case against socialism, didn’t attend Harvard, and isn’t invoked by the people who most rankle Robert Stacy McCain, thus he becomes one of the two philosophers it’s okay to cite when trying to define conservatism. Or something.
The deeper I wade into these conversations, the more I realize how ahistorical, unprincipled and arbitrary are those who’ve appointed themselves the inquisitors of movement conservatism. They complain that certain people shouldn’t call themselves conservatives, but refuse to say why in any detail. Efforts to ground a conversation about a political philosophy by referencing philosophers is mocked… and then other philosophers are invoked as better litmus tests. Worldly, nonreligious conservo-libertarians like me are told that we only think religious, Benedict-option-loving folks like Rod Dreher are conservatives because we define the movement according to the strands we like personally. Huh?
This is the kind of incoherence that results when your impetus for branding someone a heretic is that they criticized Mark Levin, or that they think the GOP’s current electoral strategy is incoherent, or that they wrote an item at The Huffington Post, or because they raise chickens in their backyard and assert that maybe there’s something troubling about corporate farms pumping antibiotics into featherless foul stuffed into tiny cages. This is what happens when you define a good conservative as someone who is hated by liberals, or someone who goes to the mattresses for inarticulate, underqualified vice-presidential candidates because liberals unfairly maligned her… or she’s “just authentic”… or she excites people at rallies.
Am I wrong? Are there actually other standards being used to decide who must not invoke conservatism — or to determine which so-called pseudo-conservatives must not be engaged on the substance of anything, because apparently it is better to plug one’s ears and close one’s eyes when someone you deem to hold a different political ideology speaks? Is there anything beyond gut level judgments and Red Team tribal loyalty guiding these decisions? If so, please share your metrics. If not, please resign as self-appointed arbiters of that which you won’t even take the time to understand.
I haven’t had the chance to listen to the skypecast yet due to computer problems, but this post just about sums up movement conservatism’s situation perfectly. As a self-proclaimed left-libertarian Hayekian, I loved this ‘graph:
“For heaven’s sake, I haven’t merely read Hayek, I’ve read him four times, and written a white paper for The Claremont Institute that invokes him in every section. Of course, it’s really more fair to call him a classical liberal, seeing as how that’s what he called himself, going so far as to write an essay called “Why I am Not a Conservative.” (Given the concessions he made to the idea of social welfare I wouldn’t be surprised if Mark Levin called him a socialist.) Hayek made a powerful case against socialism, didn’t attend Harvard, and isn’t invoked by the people who most rankle Robert Stacy McCain, thus he becomes one of the two philosophers it’s okay to cite when trying to define conservatism. Or something.”
Hear, Hear!
— Mark Thompson · Jun 16, 11:50 PM · #
Nice job. I agree, and I’d add that the inquisitors, and the whole enterprise of inquisition, is an obvious symptom of a sickly movement.
It’s about id and reflexiveness. You have to reflexively agree with Lou Dobbs on Mexicans, that reverse racism is a big deal, have read the Cliff Notes of Atlas Shrugged, and the title of one Hayek book. You have to be into attack attack attacking other countries as this is what a real national security policy looks like.
What I sense is the IQ drain…Republicans are reduced to (with fewer and fewer exceptions) people who just are not bright – who can, with a straight face, be really serious about fiscal conservatism starting on 1/20/09 at 12pm ET.
— Steve C · Jun 17, 12:25 AM · #
“ Are there actually other standards being used to decide who must not invoke conservatism — or to determine which so-called pseudo-conservatives must not be engaged on the substance of anything, because apparently it is better to plug one’s ears and close one’s eyes when someone you deem to hold a different political ideology speaks?”
It clearly is frustrating to wade through the morass of this kind of discussion, but in my view it is primarily a question of interest to the pundits themselves. It is they who seek to be considered relevant.
I would encourage you to pay little heed to how people attempt to characterize you. Write and say whatever you believe to be true.
— nicholas · Jun 17, 12:34 AM · #
Why…Conor isn’t a witch at all!
Here thyare be wytches.
— matoko_chan · Jun 17, 01:07 AM · #
This is your best post EVER, Conor.
— John Schwenkler · Jun 17, 01:20 AM · #
Conor, I really did enjoy this post, and my, my you have a list of illustrious commentors as well; hear, hear. If you keep this up you’ll make Robert S. McClain a household name.
Help me out here: In this battle do you represent the “movement” GOP, i.e. the neos, rinos, statist and RSM represents the rebellious paleos?
Well, keep up the good fight, but beware Matoko Chan is praising you!
— Bob Cheeks · Jun 17, 07:16 AM · #
The reality is that the great majority of people that you speak to on this subject are uneducated and incurious. For most, their conservatism stems from a fear of the unknown and a desire to preserve a status quo that favors them (capitalist, Christian, white majority, sexually orthodox, male-dominated society). For the more thoughtful sort of person, it could mean conserving or reviving some principles found in the (real or imagined) past. William Morris wished to return to the 14th century. That makes him more conservative in my eyes than most. And he was a socialist!
— James Dunhill · Jun 17, 09:20 AM · #
Isn’t defining who’s in and out an essential part of most groups? The “movement conservatives” believe that their agenda is morally right, best for America, or otherwise desireable. Of <i>course</i> they want to try to convince fellow conservatives that they’re right.
You’re right, of course, that intellectual discussion is a better way of reaching truth than associational or status arguments, or appeals to authority, but you surely can’t be surprised when you see the latter arise.
— J Mann · Jun 17, 09:45 AM · #
or because they raise chickens in their backyard and assert that maybe there’s something troubling about corporate farms pumping antibiotics into featherless foul stuffed into tiny cages.
Is this you?
Worldly, nonreligious conservo-libertarians like me …
I’m assuming the conservo- prefix is your curtsey in the direction of, to the necessities of, order. Which means you’ve embraced ‘system-perspective qualifiers’ within your person-perspective philosophy.
As to your overall self-description, you’ve left off one of the best predictors of your posts — your moralism. Some might call it bleeding-heartism, or youth, or (as a commenter here suggested) nancy-mindedness. I’ll be more charitable and call you an emo-Singerian. Emo-, because 1) you sport a heavy dose of empathy and compassion for absolute strangers, 2) you haven’t been argued into your moral stances and thus can’t be argued out of them, and 3) these stances tend to consist of snap-judgments and post-hoc justifications. Singerian, because 1) you’re non-religious, and 2) you clearly have an expanded and expanding circle which embraces featherless chickens in tiny cages.
Not that there’s anything wrong with this. But it does mean that you experience the “affecting perception of injustice” more than most other conservatives seem to. To me this, more than anything else, is what separates you from your kith on the right.
— Sargent · Jun 17, 10:30 AM · #
I’ll join the lovefest here, with a slight reservation. Certainly whether or not you are a conservative should not disqualify your arguments, which seems to be what your interlocutors are after.
That does not mean that the question of whether one is conservative, or liberal, or anarcho-libertarian, is hopelessly subjective. Surely these terms mean something beyond mere self-appellation. I think there are two parts to the answer. One is to discuss these labels in terms of principles instead of policies, since different principles can lead to the same policy (Lieberman and McCain’s foreign policies come to mind). The second is to realize that these labels refer to a coalescence of more granular principles, rather than a single idea, and that the same set of principles can mean a different label, depending on which principle is prioritized.
In other words, I think political labels have meaning, but I think there is a more multi-faceted spectrum than the usual polar model. I believe Conor, Rod Dreher, and Mark Levin are all conservatives, but I believe that Conor is a conservative more like Rod and less like Mark, and that the differences are not merely stylistic.
— Blar · Jun 17, 11:07 AM · #
The best post on TAS ever, probably
— paul h. · Jun 17, 11:11 AM · #
Sargent,
I’m intrigued, but confused — maybe because it’s Rod that raises chickens, whereas I mostly buy in the sweet spot between “cheap” and “won’t poison me,” though I don’t necessarily think that’s to my credit. Anyhow, which moral principles have I adopted that I haven’t been argued into? I tend to think of myself as having been argued into most of what I think.
— Conor Friedersdorf · Jun 17, 11:13 AM · #
One question we discussed: what it is that makes someone a conservative? It isn’t actually a subject I’m passionate about, as I’m inclined to take people at their word when they tell me their political philosophy
Oh no, you’re not passionate about who’s conservative or not, you just spend most of your time obsessing about how conservatives should behave and which people conservatives should drive out of the public discourse.
What are you doing if not trying to drive certain conservatives out of the public discourse?
This is what happens when you define a good conservative as someone who is hated by liberals
Talk about a straw man. Care to name someone who defines a good conservative as someone who is hated by liberals.
inarticulate, underqualified vice-presidential candidates because liberals unfairly maligned her… or she’s “just authentic”… or she excites people at rallies.
Inarticulate? Really? Care to give a few examples of her inarticulateness when she wasn’t facing an extremely hostile interviewer playing gotcha. I think you’re being extremely unfair to the woman. Is she inarticulate compared to Barack? Get the guy off the teleprompter and he stumbles all over the place. I’m not trying to argue by pointing at the other guy. I’m simply trying to get you to see that speaking extemporaneously is extremely difficult and to cut her some slack.
I would like to think that you understand the attraction she holds for many people, but I don’t think you do.
— jd · Jun 17, 11:20 AM · #
All this “who is a true conservative” BS is, as someone metioned above, a feature of any human group. People form groups—or groups of people self-form—and then people within those groups form sub-groups. That’s just one thing people do. They tell stories, they kill their own kind, they make tools, they form groups. Think about high school, or protostant religions, or—most relevantly—communists. They were, and may still be, always vehimently arguing over who was and who wasn’t orthodox.
There is always a litmus test. You need to pledge alligeince to a certain series of principals or practicies. In high school there were kids who got stoned and listened to pink floyd and had long hair and they were called Stoners. There were kids who got stoned and had long hair and listened to the Dead and they were Deadheads. And there were kids who got stoned and had long hair and liked cars and they were called Heshers.
So you are never going to be a conservative according to certain sub-groups becasue you don’t subscribe to all their principals and practices. Becasue youare gay-friendly, for instance, they are going to deny you the right to use the name Conservative. It’s a battle over the name, the brand. If you really care about this, you have to either fight and somehow take over the brand, or create sub-brands. Either create a new brand name for those who are dragging down your particular idea of conservativism with their stupid principals and practices or create a new brand name for yourself. You could call yourself and your friends New Conservatives. Or liberaltarians. Or Millinaial Conservatives (ConservoMillinailists). I suggest Conservo Novas. It’s like bossa nova (new thing), with all the calm, sophisticated, yet melencholy connotations, but now with added Conseravtivism.
— cw · Jun 17, 11:31 AM · #
Addendum: Heshers listened to Black Sabbath as well as liking cars.
— cw · Jun 17, 11:36 AM · #
Care to give a few examples of her inarticulateness when she wasn’t facing an extremely hostile interviewer playing gotcha.
This is not my preferred sport, but yeah, I’ll play. How about this:
Leave aside whether or not this is sound policy. It’s an inarticulate mess (look at that last sentence!). And Hannity’s her best friend.
Conor, that’s my impression from reading you for a while. I’ll try to come up with an example that doesn’t involve me searching through your past posts.
On the chicken thing, I should have known you were talking about Dreher, another person whose heightened sensitivity separates him from the flock.
And this kinda goes to CW’s point about group self-policing. It’s not just that a sub-group of conservatives refuses to recognize you as such. It’s also that non-conservatives, like me, see the differences between you and the mean (pun intended).
The latter is an intersubjective fact which is amenable to objective explanation. One determiner is your intellectualism. Another, according to me, is your moral sensitivity, your universalism, your emo-Singerian reflex.
— Sargent · Jun 17, 11:49 AM · #
You read all of Hayek four times?
— Jesse Walker · Jun 17, 11:59 AM · #
Wait a minute! How about this… YOUNG FRESH CONSERVATIVES.
Good right. I stole from a fine Seattle band the Young Fresh Fellows. They won’t mind.
ps. Sargent. If I’m getting my sub-groups right, Emo are basically sad about themselves, not about other people. I always thought Emo were like kids who were too weakened by depression to be Goth.
— cw · Jun 17, 12:04 PM · #
Wait a minute! I’ve had another idea. Colors are good names for politcal groups and since you are like a conservaive scone with liberal currents sprinkeled withing I’m thinking, the Purples. Red + blue = purple.
It’s fun to say too. Try it. “I’m a Purple.”
Plus, if you were more conservative than liberal you could call yourself a Magenta. And more liberal thatn conservative would be a Lavender. Or a Mauve. Or a Violet.
— cw · Jun 17, 12:11 PM · #
For awhile Andrew Sullivan wanted young people who supported the Iraq war for compasionate, freedom-spreading reasons to call themselves, “Eagles.” That was back when he thought Bush was a hero. I mocked him furiously for this along with all his other crazy ideas and eventually he saw reason and becasme who he is today. it was all me.
OK. I’m done commenting for awhile. If anyone needs me I will be in the hot tub with my secretary.
— cw · Jun 17, 12:17 PM · #
Sargent, I don’t think your quote is that inarticulate for an extemporaneous oral statement. IMHO, pretty much any transcript of any political figure on any talking head show reads more or less like that. (You’re also working with a slightly erroneous transcript, but it’s not a major change.)
— J Mann · Jun 17, 12:34 PM · #
Her headline speech at the Republican National Convention, for one. What a bungle, especially after she’d been talked up as such an excellent public speaker. And on a prompter, to boot.
— Chet · Jun 17, 12:40 PM · #
“Inarticulate? Really? Care to give a few examples of her inarticulateness when she wasn’t facing an extremely hostile interviewer playing gotcha.”
Oh, I can’t let that one go. It’s such a bounty! Palin just never disappoints.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
September 30, 2008
Hugh Hewitt: Governor, your candidacy has ignited extreme hostility, even some hatred on the left and in some parts of the media. Are you surprised? And what do you attribute this reaction to?
Palin: Oh, I think they’re just not used to someone coming in from the outside saying you know what? It’s time that normal Joe six-pack American is finally represented in the position of vice presidency, and I think that that’s kind of taken some people off guard, and they’re out of sorts, and they’re ticked off about it, but it’s motivation for John McCain and I to work that much harder to make sure that our ticket is victorious, and we put government back on the side of the people of Joe six-pack like me, and we start doing those things that are expected of our government, and we get rid of corruption, and we commit to the reform that is not only desired, but is deserved by Americans.
— just some guy with an opinion · Jun 17, 12:53 PM · #
I found things to like in what both you and Dan had to say. I think Dan is right that we must differentiate between the party and the ideology in the sense that it’s okay to move advocate moderating the GOP in a certain direction if the public mood seems to have changed, but it’s quite another to try and redefine conservatism. I think you are correct that the definition of a conservative is somewhat in the eye of the beholder.
I have a big beef right now with so-called ‘Moderate Republicans’ who espouse liberal or near-liberal views and lump them under the generic heading of moderate. It implies that anything to the right of their position is extremist. And there are a lot of people calling themselves ‘moderate’ for completely different reasons. What I would prefer is that people be more honest about their personal opinions with some sort of hyphenated labeling. Instead of using the generic ‘moderate’ how about just admitting you’re a socially-liberal Republican? It gives people a much more clear picture of what they are about.
— Mike at The Big Stick · Jun 17, 12:54 PM · #
Everyone always mentions Hayek’s “Why I’m Not a Conservative” to argue that Hayek wasn’t really a conservative, but the essay was written in 1960. Hayek, however, lived for another 32 years, publishing in that period 4 more major works, including “The Fatal Conceit.” Hayek spends much of “The Fatal Conceit” arguing that evolved social institutions have a latent functionalism that we often overlook because such institutions and practices result from cultural selection, rather than overt design. This argument is most explicit in the chapter “Religion and the Guardians of Tradition.” That strikes me as deeply “conservative.”
— ECLI · Jun 17, 12:55 PM · #
CW, a neutral description of emo- is sensitive, as in “in touch with the feelings” — i.e., those for whom Care always enters, always exists. My 19 yo brother-in-law, for instance, who also has been known to shed a tear for naked caged chickens with eight wings.
I don’t know, JMann, that reads (and sounds) like someone who only knows the talking points, and who stumbles while striving for ‘em.
With all sincerity, it makes me cringe to watch her interviewed by anybody. And, being in the deep South, I’ve developed a high cringe threshold for public figure speak. She can do rallies, though.
— Sargent · Jun 17, 12:58 PM · #
That’s it! The “Care Bears”. As in, you care, and you’re bearish about government, change, wars-of-choice, and public virtue.
I nominate this for Reihan’s ‘tummy symbol’. Jim’s would be the double helix, or the atom. I guess Conor’s would be, what, a buttoned-up collar? The Thinking Man?
James would be the only Care Bear with sideburns. And tummy symbol would be a distended belly with its navel pierced.
— Sargent · Jun 17, 01:11 PM · #
Conor,
I thought you might be interested in this comment I posted over at McCain’s blog:
http://rsmccain.blogspot.com/2009/06/conor-friedersdorf-vs-dan-riehl.html?showComment=1245250940725#c7753358057317051458
— Jeff Singer · Jun 17, 01:22 PM · #
Oh goody!
Palinbots!
Palin is simply going to kill the GOP. If she runs she will get the nom.
She still is speaking in Heartland Pageant Speak, like the 80s beauty-pageant contestant she remains under the skin, pushing random buzz words around in a mess of verbage while searching frantically and clumsily for an answer in the memory decks.
The Empress is nekkid and her fans just can’t see it a ‘tall.
I still think my paraphrase of H. Ryder Haggard is the best description….
“Suddenly there was a cry of “Hiya! Hiya!” (“She! She!”), and thereupon the entire crowd of [conservatives]spectators instantly precipitated itself upon the ground, and lay still as though it were individually and collectively stricken [brain]dead…”
and…cw…..since when do SithLords get secretaries? Or hottubs?
Shouldn’t you be reclining in a pool of magma attended by a hareem of honored matres imported from the Duniverse?
— matoko_chan · Jun 17, 01:25 PM · #
“James would be the only Care Bear with sideburns. And tummy symbol would be a distended belly with its navel pierced.”
But I don’t think James actually “cares.” He has more of the Buckley congenital disdain, in my opinion. On the other hand, he seemed jsut like a regular guy in that blooging heads thing.
— cw · Jun 17, 01:28 PM · #
What, you’re telling me Darth Sidious didn’t have administrative help? The guy was emporer of an empire was he not?
As for myself, I got a business to run here.
— cw · Jun 17, 01:31 PM · #
There’s a much simpler test for who is a “real” conservative than Friedersdorf proposes. Someone who calls himself a conservative, but who spends all of his time and energy criticizing and opposing other conservatives, and who frequently allies with liberals to defeat conservatives, is not a real conservative. (See, for example, John McCain, the latest incarnation of David Frum, and Andrew Sullivan in alternating decades.) I can easily understand why people deeply involved in any political movement dislike and disdain their fellow movement members. Liberal or conservative, they’re tiresome, and the temptation to express your disdain for them must at times be overwhelming. But if you want to be a member in good standing of your team, you don’t make plays for the other team while trash-talking your own team members.
— Gary Imhoff · Jun 17, 01:37 PM · #
As I said, just listen to Barack sometime when he’s off the teleprompter. He is supposed to be so articulate, but he stumbles as well. He packs more “uhs” into a paragraph than George Bush.
What’s frustrating about this argument is that being articulate does not mean intelligence and being inarticulate doesn’t mean stupidity. There is a huge difference between the spoken word and the written word. Many who are good writers can hardly utter a sentence coherently in public. Many who are gifted in verbal communication are not good writers. Transcribing the words of someone speaking extemporaneously doesn’t communicate the same thing as seeing the person speaking.
Conor doesn’t want to be associated with certain conservatives because they don’t talk the way he does. That’s kind of an old story, isn’t it? Bluebloods, highly educated, just a little bit smarter than the rest.
Well, I’ve never heard or seen Conor talk, perhaps that’s because he has the voice and face for print. Maybe Sarah Palin would tear him up in a debate about the oil business. She did quite well against Joe Biden.
Another of Conor’s whipping boys, Joe the Plumber, actually went on Bill Maher’s program and held his own pretty well. It was an extremely hostile environment—I would have blown up under the pressure. Joe was not terribly articulate, certainly not as gifted verbally as Maher, but he made his points the best he could in a venue that was set up to humiliate him.
Speaking of cringing, I cringe every time one of our gifted senators is on the tube, or whenever Barack is droning away. They are certainly gifted, but they never say anything honest. They can fill up more time with words than any human should ever have to hear, but they are all about “creating or saving” their asses.
— jd · Jun 17, 01:48 PM · #
For information about the characteristic mental illness that Gary Imhoff displays above, I recommend the research of Bob Altemeyer, as detailed in his book “The Authoritarians”.
— Chet · Jun 17, 01:49 PM · #
“Maybe Sarah Palin would tear him up in a debate about the oil business. She did quite well against Joe Biden.”
hahahahaha!
Sarah Palin is incapable of answering a followup question. That is what killed her in the Couric interview, and the rules of the debate with Biden were changed so that there were NO followup questions allowed.
So….jd thinks a president that can’t answer even one teenyweeny followup question is a good idea?
Dude, Palin is a retard.
She let the GOP exploit her to try for the womyn vote, lash her to Sick Grandpa’s side as a stage prop, and use her as an attack dog to say things McCain was too cunning to say, like “palling around with terrorists”. And as a result McCain got invited to the WH post-election, while Palin got soundly snubbed, even after she tried to reach out to O in her post-election attempt at rebranding.
The GOP screwed her like a two dollar whore and now they are frantically trying to scrape her off their shoes before the next election.
— matoko_chan · Jun 17, 02:06 PM · #
But I don’t think James actually “cares.”
Exactly. Which would make his identity as a Care Bear ironic and appropriately postmodern, especially given his tummy symbol — an actual tummy, distended by chronic and unsatiated hunger, but with a navel piercing.
— Sargent · Jun 17, 02:11 PM · #
“Which would make his identity as a Care Bear ironic and appropriately postmodern, especially given his tummy symbol — an actual tummy, distended by chronic and unsatiated hunger, but with a navel piercing.”
He would be hungry for meaning. This is the nature of the post-modern.
— cw · Jun 17, 03:42 PM · #
JD writes: “Another of Conor’s whipping boys, Joe the Plumber, actually went on Bill Maher’s program and held his own pretty well. It was an extremely hostile environment—I would have blown up under the pressure. Joe was not terribly articulate, certainly not as gifted verbally as Maher, but he made his points the best he could in a venue that was set up to humiliate him.”
In a pretend world where my only criticism of any conservative is that they’re inarticulate, this would be an excellent point. Unfortunately for JD, I’ve never criticized Joe the Plumber for being inarticulate. Were I in need of a spokesman to articulate conservative principles — or to sell hamburgers— I’d much prefer him to Sarah Palin. His sentences usually make sense. His syntax isn’t weirdly mixed up. He is less prone to substituting catch phrases for thought.
What I did criticize Joe the Plumber for, if memory serves, is selling out conservatives by doing a commercial misleading the most gullible among them into thinking that a toll phone call would affect the political process. I also criticized Pajamas Media for sending him to Israel instead of a more qualified reporter — Michael Totten springs to mind as someone who would’ve been a natural fit.
What don’t you understand about all this, JD?
— Conor Friedersdorf · Jun 17, 04:07 PM · #
Sargent, is Singer himself an emo-Singerian? Because his preference utilitarianism seems rather parsimonious.
I may be working with a different version of parsimony, though. To me, a parsimonious moral system is one that assumes only a few logical axioms but manages to explain quite a few moral intuitions. Universal compassion would then be a very succinct rule applying to very many cases. But it probably extends too far, much further than the actual moral intuitions most of us have. In which case, it is those of us who deviate from the simple universal compassion rule who are being comparatively more ad hoc, claiming more complex moral intuitions than those possessed by Singer.
Am I wrong here?
— Consumatopia · Jun 17, 04:37 PM · #
I’ll have whatever Conor Friedersdorf is having. Wow. Great stuff.
— just some guy with an opinion · Jun 17, 04:51 PM · #
Consumatopia, when I use emo-Singerian I mean people who have a natural affinity for Singer’s ethical stances — his widening circle, his universalism — but who do not, for whatever reason, ground their ethical ontogeny in biological utility.
Going by memory, Conor believes certain things are irreducibly wrong — irreducible to utility, say, or ‘satisfied interests’, as a true Singerian would say. While Conor’s conclusions are almost uniformly Singerian in flavor, they are not Singerian in form. Thus, emo-Singerian.
Hope that answers it. Also, Conor the emo-Singerian has the upper hand over Singer the Singerian. That’s because Singer’s logical structure is complicated and wrong.
— Sargent · Jun 17, 05:12 PM · #
And you’re right about parsimony. It’s the search for the minimum number of axioms in which the set of moral dilemmas are decidable.
— Sargent · Jun 17, 05:23 PM · #
What I don’t understand is that you don’t seem to understand the attraction for conservatives for any of the people that you are criticizing. There seems to be nothing about these horrible conservatives that appeals to you. I think if you understood their appeal, you might be a little less harsh and a little more tolerant.
One of the big reasons for their appeal is that they are NOT beltway types. I don’t think you understand the disdain that many of us have for politicians. You’ve probably written off the tea parties as a bunch of angry racists, manipulated by the people who manipulate angry racists.
There are many people who don’t see anyone in Washington saying the things that your whipping boys are constantly pounding: that is, we need less of whatever Washington is offering. Washington does not deserve our trust. Washington needs to be drained like the swamp it is. Hercules needs to do that Augean stables thing.
Meanwhile, Barack is spending more money that we don’t have, to feed the horses that we can’t afford, so the shit piles higher.
And you’re worried that Sarah Palin just doesn’t understand.
— jd · Jun 17, 05:37 PM · #
I guess where I’m still confused is that, to me, the whole point of ethical parsimony is universalism. If my moral conclusion can be based on simple logical rules, then that’s evidence that I’m not just making it up as I go along to suit my particular interests. The only reason I want parsimony in my ethical system is so that when I go out in the public square or to the courthouse, I can claim the authority of something independent of my own particular interests—some universal humanity or goodness which people of different interests can appeal to. If I wasn’t interested in making such a claim, then I wouldn’t offer arguments, I’d offer threats and bribes.
So it isn’t that Singer has constructed some elaborate set of axioms to justify his universalism, it’s that he’s failed to construct the elaborate sets of axioms the rest of us use to justify our particularisms.
— Consumatopia · Jun 17, 05:55 PM · #
Great post Conor. Somewhere along the way it became a near mortal sin to criticize others within the movement. It also became a sin to not criticize anyone on the other side. This makes no sense as interests are actually likely to overlap. Few people can possible have all the same mutual interests, unless they are being manipulated or dishonest. Criticizing one’s own to end up stronger and better just makes sense also.
I also find it telling that most of the big name conservatives will not commit to defining conservatism. I suspect they want the votes of those they might alienate.Steve
— steve · Jun 17, 05:56 PM · #
“What I don’t understand is that you don’t seem to understand the attraction for conservatives for any of the people that you are criticizing. There seems to be nothing about these horrible conservatives that appeals to you. I think if you understood their appeal, you might be a little less harsh and a little more tolerant.”
The appeal of many of these folks is non-rational. I suspect Conor fully appreciates that and it’s what aggravates him.
Mike
— MBunge · Jun 17, 06:01 PM · #
What’s elaborate are Singer’s efforts to prove that his axioms work. The axioms themselves are simple.
I think parsimony is a rule of thumb for the axioms, not the logic. I.e., the axioms should be simple, few, and intuitive; they should “force themselves upon us” as truths, to use Godel’s phrase.
From those axioms an infinite number valid moral statements can be derived, all of them logical, but not all of readily digestible. To demand parsimony across the whole system leaves out the possibility of a complex validity.
— Sargent · Jun 17, 06:18 PM · #
I’ll echo the guy above who wrote “I’ll have whatever Conor Friedersdorf is having.” In two senses, actually. Both that this is indeed really great stuff and also that when I read Conor’s line “I mostly buy [food] in the sweet spot between ‘cheap’ and ‘won’t poison me,’ though I don’t necessarily think that’s to my credit,” I thought, “hey, that’s exactly true for me also!” So I guess I’m already having what Conor Friedersdorf is having.
— Steve Ely · Jun 17, 07:24 PM · #
JD, you write: “What I don’t understand is that you don’t seem to understand the attraction for conservatives for any of the people that you are criticizing. There seems to be nothing about these horrible conservatives that appeals to you. I think if you understood their appeal, you might be a little less harsh and a little more tolerant.”
I think I do understand the attraction — as I’ve written before, Rush is a compelling entertainer in the radio broadcast medium; he, Sean Hannity and Mark Levin all pitch their programs in a way that flatters anyone who is conservative by telling them that their side is virtuous, the other side is evil, and if only everyone would listen to their way of thinking, we’d have a better world without trade-offs. That sort of simplistic rhetoric has always been appealing. The Daily Show gives its viewers humor, but it also provides a dose of the same thing — the conceit that cosmopolitan liberals are in the enlightened group that’s in the know, and if only everyone else got it, and weren’t led by such evil people, we’d live in some sort of utopia.
In fact, the world is a complicated place, and confronting reality forces one to grapple with the fact that it sometimes contradicts orthodoxies of all sides, and sometimes people who vehemently disagree with you are virtuous, and sometimes you turn out to be wrong. It is very difficult to maintain that sort of intellectual honesty, modesty, and humility, and it is near impossible when you get most of your information from outlets that cater to your every prejudice, and must continue doing so if they are to maintain their ratings.
— Conor Friedersdorf · Jun 17, 07:38 PM · #
JD: “There are many people who don’t see anyone in Washington saying the things that your whipping boys are constantly pounding: that is, we need less of whatever Washington is offering. Washington does not deserve our trust. Washington needs to be drained like the swamp it is. Hercules needs to do that Augean stables thing.”
Well JD, I’ve written from Washington demanding more fiscal sanity and a limited federal government. So has Jim Manzi. So has Megan McArdle. So has John Henke. And Radley Balko. And Julian Sanchez. That’s merely a list of folks I know personally. We aren’t politicians, but we are advocates for the things you claim that only bombastic talk radio hosts are calling for — as are lots of folks at the CATO Institute. And most of the people at Reason Magazine, located on the north side of DuPont Circle. Not to mention people at Heritage, the Washington DC based folks at National Review, and many others.
In other words, JD, you are misinformed.
— Conor Friedersdorf · Jun 17, 07:55 PM · #
But Conor….if everyone “got” South Park and SNL and Jon Stewart we could live in utopia…because that would mean no more left side of the bellcurve.
;)
— matoko_chan · Jun 17, 08:23 PM · #
it is near impossible when you get most of your information from outlets that cater to your every prejudice
Well, I heartily agree with this (naturally, since otherwise why would I be a regular TAS reader), but I don’t see how blog posts like this one are going to reach the sort of person you’re describing — those who most need to hear this message are not listening to you, no matter how or how often you say it, precisely because it’s not catering to their prejudices. Mostly these posts are just catering to the prejudices of the typical TAS reader.
— kenb · Jun 17, 09:54 PM · #
Well JD, I’ve written from Washington demanding more fiscal sanity and a limited federal government. So has Jim Manzi. So has Megan McArdle. So has John Henke. And Radley Balko. And Julian Sanchez. That’s merely a list of folks I know personally. We aren’t politicians, but we are advocates for the things you claim that only bombastic talk radio hosts are calling for — as are lots of folks at the CATO Institute. And most of the people at Reason Magazine, located on the north side of DuPont Circle. Not to mention people at Heritage, the Washington DC based folks at National Review, and many others.
That’s my point. No one knows who you guys are. I’VE heard of you (how could that be, since I get all my info from talk radio?). But note that you didn’t mention one politician or person in power.
There are many people on our side, but we wouldn’t know it if we had to rely on your colleagues in the press.
— jd · Jun 18, 07:56 AM · #
JD, We’re agreed that the platforms I mentioned all have smaller audiences than Rush Limbaugh, etc., but that need not be so — if Rush retired tomorrow to spend his days lounging on the beach or reinvented himself as a sports radio commentator those seeking conservative though would find other outlets.
— Conor Friedersdorf · Jun 18, 09:29 AM · #
I’m waiting with bated breath for your media plan to reach 20 million people every day. Please post it immediately so that some other person more reasonable than Rush can take it and run with it and have a voice as big as Rush’s, while, of course, being less bombastic and as right on the issues as you and Reihan. Please hurry.
— jd · Jun 18, 09:41 AM · #
Just one more note. The first time I ever heard of Andrew Sullivan was from Rush Limbaugh. It was before the Lewinsky scandal broke and Sullivan had decided Clinton was his new devil. (It turns out that it was probably because of “Don’t ask. Don’t tell.”) Rush read a long piece from the New Republic which included the line by Sullivan, decribing Clinton: “Like Visa, he’s everywhere you want him to be, which is exactly nowhere.” When I heard Rush reading that, I thought, “Why the hell don’t we ever hear that kind of stuff?”
Do you have an answer for that question, Conor?
— jd · Jun 18, 09:51 AM · #
JD,
If you’ll rephrase the question I’ll answer it — as stated I’m not sure I understand.
— Conor Friedersdorf · Jun 18, 10:11 AM · #
Completely disconnected from the current heated thread, I thought of a possible defense for Riehl et al. Conor writes
and later
Which, if I understand it, can be paraphrased: the “Club for Growth orthodoxy” is an insufficient qualifier for conservatism, because many self-described conservatives do not adhere to it (Rod Dreher? Mike Huckabee?), and because some people who do adhere to it (Will Wilkinson) are not self-described conservatives. That’s certainly true, but that does not mean that free-market beliefs cannot be a qualifier. I haven’t listened to Conor’s Skype-cast (that’s a thing now?), but I would guess that Riehl would say modern American conservatism is defined both by economic liberalism and traditionalism combined is some measure, and that the absence of one or the other is a disqualifier. Thus, by this argument, Wilkinson is not a conservative but a libertarian because he does not subscribe to traditionalism, and Huckabee is not a conservative but a right-wing populist because he does not subscribe to economic liberalism.
— Blar · Jun 18, 10:50 AM · #
if Rush retired tomorrow to spend his days lounging on the beach
You mean pursuing sex tourism in the Dominican Republic?
— Freddie · Jun 18, 10:57 AM · #
I can answer jd’s question.
Either you are bright enough to see the cognitive dissonance in the mainstream conservative movement, or you aren’t. It’s an IQ gradient.
People like Reihan and Conor try to lead with information and facts and true memes….but the low information base simply doesn’t have the substrate to deal.
Beck and Levin attract audience share by pandering and sloganeering, even if their meme-complexes are basically false. They tell their audiences when they really want to hear.
That conservative memes are superior, that the election was stolen by the media, that Sarah Palin is qualled to be CinC and POTUS, even when those memes are observably false.
— matoko_chan · Jun 18, 11:32 AM · #
Conor:
When I heard Rush read that excerpt from the New Republic, I couldn’t believe what I was hearing. That is, there was someone out there bashing Bill Clinton, Democrat President of the United States. It was almost shocking. Someone from the New Republic was actually dissing a Democrat—with the kind of disdain typically directed toward conservative Republicans. So here’s the question in a new way. Why would harsh criticism of a Democrat President be so shocking?
— jd · Jun 18, 05:29 PM · #
You mean pursuing sex tourism in the Dominican Republic?
Do you have a problem with that, Freddie?
— jd · Jun 18, 05:35 PM · #
JD,
I presume the answer is that conservatives lacked sufficient outlets to get their message out? I won’t speculate about whether or not that was true since I was 12 years old when Bill Clinton was elected, and not paying much attention to media, but I’ll grant it for the sake of argument.
Today, however, the media landscape is vastly changed even from 1998, when I’d begun paying attention. It is no longer true that conservative voices are hard to find. The indisputable good that Rush did for the right is to demonstrate that there is a market for right-of-center commentary and analysis. But in a world of Fox News, the Internet, talk radio and all the rest, the challenge is no longer having conservative platforms — it is having better conservative platforms.
— Conor Friedersdorf · Jun 18, 06:02 PM · #
“When I heard Rush read that excerpt from the New Republic, I couldn’t believe what I was hearing. That is, there was someone out there bashing Bill Clinton, Democrat President of the United States. It was almost shocking. Someone from the New Republic was actually dissing a Democrat—with the kind of disdain typically directed toward conservative Republicans. So here’s the question in a new way. Why would harsh criticism of a Democrat President be so shocking?”
This is all just hogwash anyway.
The assertion that “Wow! Someone is actually criticizing Bill Clinton!” is laughable on its face.
Yeah – criticism of Mr. Clinton was RARE. In what universe?
— just some guy with an opinion · Jun 18, 08:39 PM · #
The indisputable good that Rush did for the right is to demonstrate that there is a market for right-of-center commentary and analysis.
Was that difficult for you, Conor, admitting that Rush paved the way for you? Seems like you might feel a little more gratitude, since he discovered the market and all.
But in a world of Fox News, the Internet, talk radio and all the rest, the challenge is no longer having conservative platforms — it is having better conservative platforms.
Well, we’re right back where we started. I’m still waiting for your media plan for reaching those 20 million people out there who will be shut out when Rush goes to DR for sexcapacades. (And you respect Freddie?) Please hurry. Because when Rush goes we’ll be depending on some really smart folks like you and Reihan and David Frum to get us excited about the prospects for the future.
This sounds really snarky and I hate it. I have always liked David Frum and I would probably like you. But there is so much to be outraged about with this arrogant Marxist in the White House, and yet you want to purge people like Rush, when there is no one around, NO ONE, who is willing to stand up to this guy.
— jd · Jun 18, 08:39 PM · #
But jd….. Rush is not telling you the truth.
What good is that?
You can be OUTRAGED about O all you want, but unless you can come up with some competitive memes and a viable candidate your failboat is dead in the water for 2010.
Rush is telling you Palin can win and doubling down on antique memes is going to win it.
That is observably false.
People say they are conservative but they don’t vote that way.
People want national healthcare. They are going to vote for whoever gives it to them.
Sarah Palin will lose. Her negatives with youth, independants, and college-educated are ferocious.
That is why the GOP leadership is either pretending she doesn’t exist ot trying frantically to scrape her off their shoes before the next election.
Them’s just the facts.
Rush is telling you what you want to hear for audience share. It’s made him rich.
But Conor is telling you that Rush’s audience alone can’t win it for the GOP.
20 million people is not a plurality of the American electorate.
— matoko_chan · Jun 18, 09:35 PM · #
Majority, sorry.
— matoko_chan · Jun 18, 09:40 PM · #
“But there is so much to be outraged about with this arrogant Marxist in the White House”
jd. No one can take anything you write seriously when you say stuff like this. You disqualify yourself.
— cw · Jun 18, 11:54 PM · #
JD writes: “This sounds really snarky and I hate it. I have always liked David Frum and I would probably like you. But there is so much to be outraged about with this arrogant Marxist in the White House, and yet you want to purge people like Rush, when there is no one around, NO ONE, who is willing to stand up to this guy.”
JD, stop being so excitable. Where have I ever written that I want to purge Rush Limbaugh? I’m the one arguing against that kind of idiotic rhetoric. I wanted Limbaugh to stop being intellectually dishonest, but I’ve no desire to purge him — and it is frankly pathetic that any time one criticizes a talk radio host, their defenders are so thin skinned that they compare it to a campaign to annihilate them.
And really? A Marxist in the White House? Please explain that one. Did I miss the speech where he calls for the workers of the world to cast off their chains and unite?
“Was that difficult for you, Conor, admitting that Rush paved the way for you? Seems like you might feel a little more gratitude, since he discovered the market and all.”
Rush discovered the market for conservative broadcasters — whereas intellectually honest writers long predated him. I’d be fine with or without Rush. It’s Mr. Hannity and Mr. Levin who have reason to thank him.
— Conor Friedersdorf · Jun 19, 01:33 AM · #
And really? A Marxist in the White House? Please explain that one. Did I miss the speech where he calls for the workers of the world to cast off their chains and unite?
I knew that one would get you. But only a stupid person would use Marxist language to espouse Marxism in the United States. If a Marxist doesn’t use Marxist language, does that mean he’s not a Marxist? Your reasoning here is intentionally ignorant.
Look, I know that calling anyone in this country a Marxist (or socialist) is verboten. But if he truly believes in Marxism, how would he behave any differently? We already know he is a master at hiding what he truly believes about anything. (Only that dumb Joe the Plumber got him to say something honest.)
He is nationalizing or trying to nationalize everything he can, while saying he doesn’t want to run anything. Short of a revolution, I think our old Communist enemies would be very happy with how he’s doing things.
I don’t for one moment think that he thinks he’s a Marxist. He would reject it out of hand. However, he thinks government needs to be more involved in things, whether it’s constitutional or not. If anyone is paying attention, it is obvious that we have many problems because of government—it’s not the solution, it’s the problem. That doesn’t seem to matter to him.
I think the guy thinks that all these wealthy people have gotten their wealth on the backs of the less fortunate and that it’s his job to return the wealth to its rightful owners. If he believes anything, that’s got to be one of his guiding lights.
— jd · Jun 19, 09:24 AM · #
jd
I don’t think you really know what marxisim is. On the continuum of state control it is at the maximal. A few steps in that direction does not make one a marxist, any more than hugging a male friend makes you gay.
The fact that you think Obama is a marxist (not just a socialist) and that you think it is a bold step to say it out loud just proves what Connor is saying. People who listen to talk radio hold wacky ideas about the world becasue people like Rush and Levin propagandize them (with what they want to hear) for various reasons, money being a really big one. Your comments are a good example of the dangers they pose to conservatives and to our politics in general.
— cw · Jun 19, 10:15 AM · #
So there you are Conor.
How do you tell the base what they don’t want to hear?
Like jd, they are plugging their ears and chanting ……nah….nah….Rush….true conservative values…..Reagan….Levin…..20 million…socialism….secession….marxism….
Whigs redux.
— matoko_chan · Jun 19, 03:09 PM · #
The GOP has become irrelevent.
sic semper ignoramus
— matoko_chan · Jun 19, 03:11 PM · #