Will and the flag.
I guess I will be stripped of my passport and moustache-wearing rights, but let me stand up for a second for Jonah Goldberg who, in a slightly touching post on Thanksgiving in Paris (mon Dieu!), had the misfortune to write:
A little mystic nationalism is a good and healthy thing because it provides the emotional sinew that helps us hold onto our patriotism.
To which Will Wilkinson replied that the “good and healthy” looks like this:

Well, that’s just great.
Will, I heard you like capitalism, so I put some capitalism in your capitalism and here’s what capitalism looks like:

LOL!
The great thing about the internet is that if you caricature an opponent you win, and if you can prove that something can sometimes have bad consequences, you’ve proven that thing is always bad.
Oh, wait. That’s not actually how it works! How it works is that you argue in good faith, come to reasonable disagreements, don’t call each other names, and maybe, every once in a while, convince the other guy or let yourself be convinced. In short, you behave better than 8 year olds in a schoolyard. At least, that’s how it should work.
But of course this is unlikely to happen when one (or both) protagonist(s) is convinced that they are the only ones who are objective and reasonable (ahem).
So yes, I agree with Jonah, I do think that a little “mystic nationalism” is a good and healthy thing because the union of the national polity around a common identity is the necessary precondition of its health.
And patriotism does have an irrational side, like most everything else we flawed creatures come up with. Of course the bad impulses of nationalism must be checked, as with the bad impulses of democracy, of free enterprise, and of everything else that we consider good and healthy.
How great it must be to be so enlightened, so above the morbid miasmas of irrational attachment, to be able to view the whole world unmoored from belonging. How irrational, how icky it must seem to be actually attached to something so quaint as one’s country. How coarse must be the dark bread of patriotism when one can feast on the fine brioche of enlightened cosmopolitanism. Let the world eat brioche! Cosmopolitans of the world unite, you have nothing to lose but your chains!
I’ve long meant to pen here an elaborate defense of so-called “national greatness conservatism” intended for libertarians and conservatives who view every stirring of government as a threat (a generally healthy instinct to be sure but, like all instincts, one that must sometimes be checked).
The thrust of my argument would probably be this: that a strong national polity, cemented by a common identity, is the yin to democracy’s yang. Democracy is not about a ballot box, or even only about fundamental human rights. Democracy, at its core, is a national community choosing the rules and values that it wants to live by. And it is a great and wonderful thing that there are hundreds of nations, each different, each with its own specific quirks, ideas, and thoughts. And the fact that, in time, hopefully, each of these nations will secure for its members a universally shared set of human rights, will not mean that they can or should be subsumed in a globalist glob.
This is, in fact, the main thrust of that beautiful of beautiful documents, the American Declaration of Independence: we recognize that there are universal human rights, and we’re going to secure those rights for ourselves in our way. The first part cannot be separated from the second part. And this was made possible, at least in part, by the love of a band of brothers for their unborn country, in all its brilliant, exuberant irrationality.
Like the pimply-faced college freshman who rants against free trade while wearing Nike and Gap, Will proudly displays his contempt of patriotism as he reaps its tangible benefits. When you live in a country which is violently despised by a significant minority of its population, you realize the importance of patriotism and see the effects of its decline. Were the post-national cosmopolitan polity that Will evidently dreams of to come true, I’m afraid he would find himself stripped of many of the liberties he holds dear, because after all the rest of the world doesn’t really agree with most Americans about the size of government and the importance of free enterprise (not that America is free in all respects but it’s certainly more free than most of the alternatives — and no, having legal pot and married gays does not make the Netherlands free in the way that America is free).
In America and in every free country the freedoms that libertarians and others hold dear are, and have always been protected by patriots. Ideologies that seek to replace national identities have not been good for my continent, to say the least. It is significant that the nations that suffered most under the totalitarian yoke did not awaken to embrace bloodless internationalism but instead embraced their own patriotism, and it is no coincidence that the same countries (France and Britain) invented both the sovereign nation-state and the idea of universal human rights.
As much as I wish for a peaceful and cosmopolitan world, it seems self-evident to me that for such a world to be healthy, we must have in equal measures openness to other cultures and peaceful pride in our own (of choice or of birth).
Clearly, I won’t convince Will. I know that he is otherwise a very intelligent thinker who writes thoughtfully and with an open mind. But I couldn’t let this instance of vituperative approximation slide by unchecked.
And Jonah, since you’re in Paris, I’d love to buy you a beer.
That’s a nice writeup on national greatness conservatism, like most proponents you kind of feel like it’s important, but how does all that jibe with evidence? You might agree with the general sentiment that, say, Scandanavians and the Dutch don’t feel patriotic in the same way Americans do. Are they, in any way at all, worse off for it?
The Belgians might be the closest thing to the opposite of what you’re talking about – it’s a divided country. They have delays in getting governments in place from time to time. But is this anything besides an annoyance? Are their people less educated, or less ethical, or less innovative or less supportive of democracy or the government more prone to takeover by a strongman? Are their block parties less fun? Is there any measure at all along which “national greatness conservatism” would – does – affect a country positively?
Because I can think of a big negative. It simply serves to cow and browbeat dissenters in the run-up to a war. That’s it. Patriotism is a peacock’s plume (or rather, a ribbon magnet or three that you stick on your truck, or a forwarded email in 16-point Arial) that’s intended to separate out the worthy from the unworthy, and shortcut all reasoned discourse about whether or not we should bomb the shit out of civilians. As Himmler put it at Nuremburg, “Of course the people don’t want to go to war. But they can be brought to their leader’s bidding by labeling those who oppose war as being unpatriotic.”
I’m sure Pascal and Jonah see deaths in unnecessary wars as unfortunate. You know, it had to be done…or, it was kind of a mistake, too bad.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/02/03/opinion/04opart-large.jpg)
^^ that’s too bad, but let’s not blame patriotism, that’s unfair! And patriotism is great because I just feel like it is!
2003 was a banner year for patriotism – I (and I’m guessing, Will) would rather live in a society that, having experienced 2003, would be strongly weighing whether patriotism is a human failing, or maybe simply evil. But that’s not America, or at least much of the right.
— Steve C · Nov 26, 12:11 PM · #
One thing that PEG shares with Reihan is a capacity for rose-colored readings of various conservative pundits and ideas that progress into sheer fantasy. Jonah Goldberg doesn’t need caricature; Jonah Goldberg is a caricature. I invite PEG to explain how Will was indulging in caricature regarding the thoughts of nationalism from a man who explicitly and proudly said that the purpose of Iraq was to “take some crappy little country and throw it up against the wall”. I’ll keep my own counsel on his supposedly deep, principled views on nationalism, thanks.
— Freddie · Nov 26, 12:37 PM · #
Oh, by the way—
The great thing about the internet is that if you caricature an opponent you win
a few lines later
Like the pimply-faced college freshman who rants against free trade while wearing Nike and Gap
Good to know PEG doesn’t caricature people he disagrees with!
— Freddie · Nov 26, 12:45 PM · #
I respect Will Wilkerson’s intellect and enjoy many of his peices. At the same time I can’t help but always hear an underlying message of “But I’m smarter than you”
And to the larger point, did Jonah Goldberg speak in favor of blind patriotism? I’d wager he’s aware of the negative consequences of nationalism.
— C3 · Nov 26, 12:51 PM · #
I agree about the style of debate that prevails on the web. Bloggers seem to take great pride in the fact that they have developed a code of conduct requiring them to link to people they criticize. This technology has evidently done nothing to increase the average level of responsiveness to opposing arguments. Indeed, bloggers have even come up with a shorthand to alert readers that they are about to make a flagrant strawman argument: “Shorter (misguided opponent): (absurd statement.)” The absurd statement always imports the enlightened blogger’s assumptions into the misguided opponent’s argument, without demonstrating the validity of these assumptions.
PEG: I hope your case for National Greatness Conservatism ends up stronger than the original NGC argument of Kristol and Brooks (http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=95000513).
As a libertarian, it is not so much suspicion of federal programs that makes me hostile to their project. They do not argue for specific government interventions that they find to be worthwhile for meeting some need. Rather, they appear to believe that the grand federal efforts are intrinsicly good, because they are uthat they are uniquely ennobling as compared with the projects undertaken by civil society and in the free market, but they never make clear why this should be the case. Give me the flabby, petty and contemptible government of the Clinton era over all the hopemongering of Bush and Obama; if that means conservatives don’t win a “fundamental” victory, in Kristol and Brooks’s words, so be it.
Your argument is shaping up to be a bit different. Not great national projects, but the act of choosing a set of values by which to live, is intrinsicly ennobling. The values themselves appear then to not have any intrinsic goodness, but perhaps are made good by our process of choosing to live by them. I’m not sure exactly what room this leaves for the universalism to which you appeal later in the post.
— Aaron · Nov 26, 12:56 PM · #
“Will proudly displays his contempt of patriotism as he reaps its tangible benefits.”
What tangible benefits have patriotism as their reason for being? What are the consequences of lack of patriotism (examples please)? I suspect that you can’t really answer either of those questions in any meaningful/specific way, and that you’re just flailing about.
— Steve C · Nov 26, 01:53 PM · #
Leaving aside the merits of the case, many many many thanks for taking the time to smack around that intolerably smug little bully Will Wilkinson! Emotionally very satisfying, like patriotism I guess.
— nb · Nov 26, 01:56 PM · #
Steve C:
There’s plenty of things to unpack here:
I do agree with this general sentiment but I don’t think, nor have I written, that I think they’re worse off for it.
Different peoples will be patriotic in different ways, and that’s great! In fact, to me, it’s the essence of patriotism: precisely because different nations are, well, different, their people will love them for different reasons.
I suspect that a patriotic Swede might feel proud of his country in part because of its generous welfare state; this would not be true, I suspect, of many American patriots. This does not mean that one kind of patriotism is better than the other. Both kinds are good and great! But it does suggest that patriotism is a complex, widespread phenomenon that should not be easily dismissed as troglodytic.
Actually, Belgium is a pretty good example.
Yes, I do think that having the government paralyzed for most of the past years by linguistic and other national questions sucks from a policy perspective. One of the reasons why Fortis, Belgium’s largest bank, had to be bought out by BNP Paribas, a French bank, is because the government couldn’t react in time to save it.
If you’re a Francophone in Flemish country, addressing a public servant or a barkeeper in French will make them pretend they don’t understand you, until you explain you’re French, and not Walloon, and they will suddenly and inexplicably become kind and forthcoming. I thought this was a cliché until I experienced it. While going out in Brussels with French friends I was insulted in bad French, for speaking French, by a couple of drunk Flemish-speakers. That’s not the best atmosphere to live in.
I spoke with a Belgian lawyer who tried to explain the kafkaesque number of administrative layers that has been built to guarantee each group autonomy. Despite a pretty good legal education and the fact that the Belgian legal system is modeled after the French, I could not make sense of it. Tremendous money and energy is spent on making sure that a Flemish speaker receives government documents and such only in his language, and vice versa, etc. This carries significant economic and social costs.
Well gee, now that you’ve quoted a Nazi, surely I must be proven wrong!
I would argue that patriotism is distinct from nationalism, which itself is distinct from totalitarianism, which is what the Nazi ideology was.
I would argue, furthermore, that while you could conceivably say that “patriotism” led the Germans to war, it also led the British to carry on under the Blitz, for our continued benefit. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, after all, but it doesn’t mean we should do away with good intentions altogether.
I should probably point out that I opposed the War in Iraq (and supported the Surge, which makes me part of a pretty small club). And that I think it’s contemptible to label people who have reasonable differences with you unpatriotic.
That being said, and this may be lack of information on my part, but while I’ve seen and heard dozens of liberals whine about how they were branded as unpatriotic for opposing the War, I’ve never seen a sourced quote by either Bush, Cheney or Rumsfeld saying, in so many words, “Those who oppose the war are not patriots.”
Freddie:
I knew you wouldn’t react kindly to this. :) Look, I didn’t write this post to stand for everything that Jonah’s ever written. He’s a humorous polemicist. He likes to go over the top and to make enemies. Like Jon Stewart, I find him funny and enjoy reading him even when I disagree with him.
What moved me to write this post was that Jonah didn’t write a long tirade in favor of jingoistic paternalism. He wrote a little, and as I said, somewhat touching, personal post on Thanksgiving, and why it’s his favorite holiday. From that post, Will jumped on a couple sentences and wrote, basically, “YEAH JONAH BUT PEOPLE DIED!!!!1!!11” That’s what I didn’t like.
Aaron:
Thanks for a smart and thoughtful comment.
That’s a really good point. What I would say is that there’s room for a lot of variance in values that are still consistent with universal human rights.
For instance, the French and Americans view the separation of church and state very differently, and in very different terms. And the First Amendment and the French law of 1905 are both fundamental parts of the American and French national identities respectively.
Yet both are consistent with democracy and human rights. Going further, places like Great Britain and Scandinavian countries even have national Churches — something which would be unthinkable, both in France and in the US. And yet these places nevertheless have democracy and the rule of law. So there’s a pretty big spectrum of local values that you can have while being consistent with universal ideals.
There are clearly national or cultural values that are inconsistent with universal human rights, like slavery (still widespread around the world), the submission of women, etc., and in a perfect world these would (will) go.
As far as great big national projects, I do think they can certainly help to strengthen national identity. A great example of a big and good national project would be the Apollo project in the United States. Of course wars can be those big national projects, and you end up in iffy territories. If it’s a good war, like World War II, that’s good. If it’s a bad war, that’s bad. There are no set rules and, as in any human endeavors, the pitfalls are many.
But it certainly doesn’t mean that patriotism = death, as Will wrote.
— PEG · Nov 26, 01:57 PM · #
“ When you live in a country which is violently despised by a significant minority of its population, “
That minority would be whom, and how big is significant? A real commitment to one’s country is a good thing. Claiming patriotism as a means of advancing ideology, how it is almost always used, is not. In fact, I would venture that those who claim to be real patriots are also those who are most likely to accuse others of not being “real Americans”, one of the least patriotic things I can imagine.
Steve
— steve · Nov 26, 02:00 PM · #
Thanks. At least I’ve done my part to improve the civility in the blagosphere.
Look: you don’t think that the US is better off from having won World War II and the Cold War? Or, well, being independent at all?
Personally, I’m really freaking glad that I live in a democracy and not under the Nazi or Soviet jackboot, and this has been accomplished by patriots. My great grandfather served in the French military and later joined the Resistance, and he didn’t do it because he felt like it would jog his legs.
Just because these things happened a long time ago doesn’t mean they haven’t happened.
As for the bad consequences of a lack of patriotism, since you crossed the Godwin point first, how about I point you to the city of Munich, in the year 1938?
— PEG · Nov 26, 02:02 PM · #
I think the American Indians might disagree.
— Jake · Nov 26, 02:11 PM · #
PEG writes:
“Or, well, being independent at all?”
I think this is an example of the ‘flailing’ Steve C was talking about. Those British citizens/colonists were revolutionaries, not British patriots. Or do you think Patrick Henry et. al. were patriotic subjects of the crown?
— keatssycamore · Nov 26, 02:53 PM · #
Um, no, they were patriotic Americans.
By the way, so were Lincoln, FDR, Martin Luther King, all of whom did pretty great things for their country (and for the world!, but you can be a patriot and a universalist).
— PEG · Nov 26, 03:08 PM · #
PEG,
So, using this logic, Puerto Rican separatists are not patriotic Americans, but they are patriotic Puerto Ricans? I understand that. This is going to get confusing having to admire the patriotism of any group that claims some ‘national greatness’ within a larger oppressive framework. I might not enjoy admiring Patriotic Hamas, Patriotic Taliban, Patriotic ETA along with you and Jonah, but at least your position has consistency.
I’m wondering though if you can cite to me the democratic vote in British Colonies that took place before the Revolutionary War wherein the ‘national greatness’ patriotism of a country that didn’t even yet exist was established? How was that ballot initiative phrased?
— keatssycamore · Nov 26, 03:29 PM · #
Pascal:
I wish you weren’t French, so I could love everything about you.
— Victor Morton · Nov 26, 04:17 PM · #
Jonah Goldberg and Jon Stewart couldn’t be more un-alike.
Stewart is funny, smart, witty, charming, and self-deprecating.
— Socrates · Nov 26, 05:33 PM · #
99.9% of Goldberg’s writing is about the scary Liberal hiding under the bed.
— Socrates · Nov 26, 05:41 PM · #
Very good, PEG. Thanks for writing it.
BTW, were you influenced by C.S. Lewis’s, “The Abolition of Man” ? Or did you come to these good thoughts by some other route?
— The Reticulator · Nov 26, 06:26 PM · #
“99.9% of Goldberg’s writing is about the scary Liberal hiding under the bed.”
That’s not a liberal — the liberal would in the bed.
— mike farmer · Nov 26, 06:29 PM · #
From Jonah Goldberg’s Wikipedia entry:
“French-bashing, Francophobia, and anti-Europeanism
Goldberg has publicly admitted to disliking France or, as he writes, being in the “frog-bashing business,” using the derogatory term “frog” to designate the French: “the frog-bashing business has changed a lot since I first started just a few years ago”.14 He has also called for “the total destruction of France”; he later clarified his statement as meaning “the destruction of France as an idea”.15 Some commentators, like Brian Dunaway, consider that Goldberg’s attitude towards the French is francophobic: “The poor souls that visit Goldberg’s columns know that he has made Francophobia a favorite pastime”.16 Other commentators, such as Timothy Garton Ash, explain Goldberg’s attitude, among others, by a deeply rooted “anti-Europeanism” in the United States.17
Goldberg also is given credit for making “cheese-eating surrender monkeys” an internet meme, often using the phrase in his NRO writings. The phrase was invented and popularized by the television show, The Simpsons, which Goldberg ironically cited in a column on racism.18“
— Freddie · Nov 26, 06:35 PM · #
“Well gee, now that you’ve quoted a Nazi, surely I must be proven wrong!”,
“Thanks. At least I’ve done my part to improve the civility in the blagosphere.”
I haven’t compared you to a Nazi, which is what Godwin’s law is about. I don’t believe her intent was to cordon off a decade of history from debate. And it’s a bit rich for a blogger who gets unhinged enough to write stuff like “like the pimply-faced college freshman who rants against free trade while wearing Nike and Gap” to then try to claim the high ground in the comments. Dude, you just wrote that, all anybody has to do is scroll up and it’s right there.
“Look: you don’t think that the US is better off from having won World War II and the Cold War? Or, well, being independent at all?”
So am I right to say that you think patriotism won us WW2 and the Cold War? Do you believe the Germans and Japanese lost because they were insufficiently patriotic? No one would believe these things, but now we’re back where we started: what is and isn’t patriotism responsible for? Were the 200k French who were defeated by the Nazis insufficiently patriotic?
“Personally, I’m really freaking glad that I live in a democracy and not under the Nazi or Soviet jackboot, and this has been accomplished by patriots.”
Victory in WW2 has more to do with the Eastern front – the extraordinary fight put up by the Soviet military and populace, led by Stalin – than anything that occurred on the western front. And this again gets back to the core point – what group of people have failed to take up arms when pushed in such a way? I’m still waiting for some sense of what the cost of lack of patriotism is.
As an aside you do realize that if you took a survey of Jonah’s readers, you’d find healthy number who define their idea of patriotism and bravery in contrast to the French effort in WW2, right (I know because I get the chain emails)? Doesn’t that disgust you?
“I’ve never seen a sourced quote by either Bush, Cheney or Rumsfeld saying, in so many words, “Those who oppose the war are not patriots.””
Wow that’s a pretty high bar Pascal. You know it might just be that they said these things through surrogates. I think the entire Fox network, run by a rabid Bush crony, is fair to put forward, but if you want something a little more targetted with a big name on it, how about (plucking something off a simple Google search) the House Majority Leader authoring an article entitled “DeLay Questions Dems’ Patriotism” and ending with the sentence “And yes, I am questioning their patriotism.” .
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0307/2984.html
— Steve C · Nov 26, 07:58 PM · #
“I spoke with a Belgian lawyer who tried to explain the kafkaesque number of administrative layers that has been built to guarantee each group autonomy. Despite a pretty good legal education and the fact that the Belgian legal system is modeled after the French, I could not make sense of it. Tremendous money and energy is spent on making sure that a Flemish speaker receives government documents and such only in his language, and vice versa, etc. This carries significant economic and social costs.”
Yeah, I think I need something better than this. I’ll grant that the fact that the country is effectively divided is annoying for all involved, but I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t call Belgium a fundamentally flawed society – that your average Belgian family on either side of the divide seriously suffers for not thinking much of the government in Brussels. If you sliced Belgium in two or Switzerland in three you’d have peaceful advanced egalitarian modern western democracies strongly adhering to Enlightenment principles, with rich educated populaces living in stable communities.
— Steve C · Nov 26, 08:13 PM · #
“So am I right to say that you think patriotism won us WW2 and the Cold War? Do you believe the Germans and Japanese lost because they were insufficiently patriotic? No one would believe these things, but now we’re back where we started: what is and isn’t patriotism responsible for? Were the 200k French who were defeated by the Nazis insufficiently patriotic?”
Before Pascal has a chance to answer I’d like to place my bet: I’ll bet you’re wrong about what he thinks.
I base this on what he said. He didn’t say the most patriotic side won. He’s saying patriotism enabled the Brits to carry on. Those two are not the same thing.
— The Reticulator · Nov 26, 09:55 PM · #
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— hanyu · Nov 26, 10:16 PM · #
“patriotism enabled the Brits to carry on”
who, who was in a position to fight and resist, didn’t?
You and Pascal are making unfalsifiable claims. You say that all success in war can be marked up in part to patriotism. But failure can’t be. And there are no examples put forward of insufficient patriotism costing anyone anything. It’s important enough to have been responsible for winning the Cold War and WW2, but apparently it’s historically undefeated (like God) because we can’t accuse, say, the French of being unpatriotic and therefore losing (and just to be clear I find any such accusation to be absurd) – the French made a valiant effort and were faced with a set of unfortunate circumstances. But didn’t have a patriotism problem.
Or maybe it would be just as well for me to point out that you need human beings in order to win a war. If you don’t have any humans you can’t win. All wars that have ever been won have involved having humans on the winning side. Let’s give three cheers for humans, without which we wouldn’t have Thanksgiving. That’s the level of argument being put forth here.
— Steve C · Nov 27, 01:33 AM · #
Now they’re piling on.
Ok.
keatssycamore:
Well yeah, if you’re a Puerto Rican/Basque separatist you’re not an American/French patriot. That’s kind of by definition.
I never said that anyone who is patriotic is admirable as such and in all cases. As for the Taliban, they’re not patriotic at all — Afghanistan doesn’t exist as a nation! The Taliban have their allegiance to their clan and their religion, which is very different from a nation. It’s also arguable that Hamas are less about Palestinian national identity than about global fundamentalist islam but that’s another debate altogether.
You can be a patriot and do bad, no good, horrible things, and I’m not going to say “Yeah, but he’s a patriot, so I still admire him.” That’s ridiculous. Furthermore, in the case of ETA/Hamas, I don’t think you can be a true patriot and a terrorist. That’s debatable and tangential.
Victor Morton: Je t’aime aussi.
Socrates:
He also poops unicorns and spits rainbows.
The Reticulator
Never read anything by C.S. Lewis.
Freddie:
Hence the first phrase of my post where I say I will be stripped of my moustache-wearing rights for defending Jonah. And also something tells me you haven’t even read Jonah’s post, since he mentions his French-bashing in the first paragraph.
And see, that’s the thing about French people. We’re just so Goddamn magnanimous. That’s why I’m so proud of my country! ;)
Steve C:
Actually, no. Godwin’s law is about a comparison of anything to Nazi Germany. You compared the run-up to War in Iraq (or patriotic fervor in general, I’m not sure) to the war frenzy whipped up by Nazi Germany. Which not only crosses the Godwin point but, honestly, shows a gobsmacking (and somewhat offensive) ignorance of history. Watch Triumph of the Will sometimes. The extent of the apparatus that was mobilized in Nazi Germany to whip up nationalist, totalitarian — hardly patriotic — frenzy is nothing like a bunch of talking heads on CNN talking about how bad Saddam Hussein is.
There were many reasons why many sides lost, but I think patriotism in episodes such as the Blitz of London, the Liberation of Paris and others was a deciding factor.
And I definitely think that the cowardly behavior of the European nations toward Nazi Germany in the 30’s and France’s defeat are attributable to a lack of patriotism.
The great history book L’Etrange défaite (The Strange Defeat) explores how the French and German armies in 1940 were evenly matched and how the French collapsed not only because of the Maginot line (itself a shocking revelation of a certain state of mind) but simply because the French did not have the will to fight and were disillusioned with themselves.
The French defeat in 1940 precisely shows what happens when a nation has lost its self-confidence and its pride and it’s precisely because I’m French and the country is going through a similar malaise that I realize the importance of national identity.
You also mention the importance of the Eastern front. It was certainly important. And historians have noted how starting from Operation Barbarossa, Stalin’s propaganda apparatus did a full 180. Before 1941 Soviet propaganda focused on the Soviet international and refused to mention Russia and other Tsarist/bourgeois notions of patriotism. Being smart, Stalin cut that crap out from day one of the war, had the radio blaring messages about Mother Russia, pulled Orthodox priests out of prison to explain how God was on the side of Mother Russia, etc.
Furthermore, from Thermopylae to Lexington to Valmy to, yes, the world wars, history has shown that armies made up of volunteers committed to a common ideal has always outmatched impressed gangs. Certainly I think the fact that most of the nations of the Eastern Bloc were subjugated in fealty to Russia played a part in their demise — patriotic Poles and Germans wanted nothing to do with Russia so as soon as the edifice cracked they tore it down.
But of course while war is the obvious example, there are many examples of positive stuff that happened thanks to patriotism outside of military victory. I mentioned the space program before. Civil rights. The fall of the Berlin Wall, which was about one nation coming together and, farther east, several nations gaining their independence. Aren’t those things awesome?
It saddens me. But whaddayougonnado?
Ok, noted.
That’s facially a good point, but actually that’s the case of all historical debates and historical examples — which you were the one to ask for.
That’s just false. I pointed to Munich and now I am pointing to 1940.
That’s just what I did, and honestly it’s pretty obvious from your comments that you know less about the history than I do. But ignorance has never stopped people from calling other people’s positions “absurd.” On the contrary.
Just to be clear: I’m not saying that patriotism is always and everywhere to the good, and that patriotism only has good consequences and no bad ones. I’m saying that it can be good and that, on balance, the good outweighs the bad. I don’t deny the existence of the bad.
The Reticulator:
Yep, that’s exactly right.
— PEG · Nov 27, 04:28 AM · #
Steve C:
As for Belgium, if you don’t think that widespread malaise, a barely functioning government, and deadweight economic loss are bad, I don’t know what you want. There’s no zombie invasion, that’s true. The Flemish and the Walloons are not (yet) shooting at each other. But of course, if they were, you would attribute that to the disastrous effects of patriotism, which is why I can’t win this debate.
— PEG · Nov 27, 04:30 AM · #
My point is that your patriotism seems to be in direct conflict with his.
— Freddie · Nov 27, 09:57 AM · #
Why? Because he makes fun of my country? Dude, I don’t care.
Part of it is because I have a sense of humor and a thick skin. Part of it is a Voltaire thing: just because he acts like an ass sometimes means I shouldn’t say something when he’s being (in my view) unfairly attacked over something that I agree with him on? That’s not how I work.
— PEG · Nov 27, 10:23 AM · #
About Jonah Goldberg – “He’s a humorous polemicist. He likes to go over the top and to make enemies.”
No, he’s not and he doesn’t. Being a humorous polemicist requires a consistent effort to be, by some definition, funny. Rush Limbaugh could be called a humorous polemicist. Jonah Goldberg is a dim-witted smart alec.
And the problem with Goldberg’s invocation of “mystic nationalism” is that Jonah’s patriotism is almost entirely rhetorical. “Emotional sinew” is useful to the performance of patriotic action. The man risking his life, his fortune and his sacred honor for his country needs to feel more than he needs to think. But when your patriotism is largely limited to shooting off your fat mouth, invocations of “mystic nationalism” are most commonly toxic because it’s using a non-rational appeal within the context of a supposedly rational debate.
Mike
— MBunge · Nov 27, 11:37 AM · #
I don’t think that could be farther from the truth. Clan, religion, civic pride, nation, hell, even your sports team – people root for these things because they’re all different ways of saying “this is my tribe, these are my people, and they’re better than yours, so you better back the fuck off.” Sure, that kind of tribal identity leads people to do great things – the outpouring of support by Saints fans after Hurricane Katrina – but there’s no topological difference between patriotism of country and pride in religion, or ethnicity, or your hometown sports team. The difference is only in how large that particular tribe is supposed to be.
— Chet · Nov 27, 01:59 PM · #
“My point is that your patriotism seems to be in direct conflict with his.”
…. which presupposes that patriotism/nationalism is supposed to unite all people everywhere. It isn’t. Your point is as intellectually substantial as saying that lifting weights makes your body bigger.
— Victor Morton · Nov 27, 03:47 PM · #
“widespread malaise”
really? I know some Belgians, I don’t think they’d agree that there’s widespread malaise any more than the Swiss would. It’s a problem that 95% of the rest of humanity might like to have.
— Steve C · Nov 27, 07:35 PM · #
“That’s just what I did, and honestly it’s pretty obvious from your comments that you know less about the history than I do. But ignorance has never stopped people from calling other people’s positions “absurd.” On the contrary.”
Why don’t you kiss my ass?
You’re seriously putting forward the French defeat to superior German forces as lack of patriotism, Munich (?!) as having something to do with patriotism (do you know what went on at Munich?), and that (the British having miraculously done a 180 on patriotism since Munich, apparently) patriotism was decisive in the Battle of Britain (I’d just point to a body of water for starters). We also have all sorts of counterfactuals to play with – French decision not to occupy the Low Countries, Allied decision not to occupy the Ruhr when Hitler was in clear violation of Versailles, etc, etc – had any of this played out differently your historical narrative completely reverses. Had accidents of geography or political leadership been shuffled around a bit you’d be assigning a completely different set of outcomes to patriotism.
“But whaddayougonnado?”
It might make you skeptical of patriotism as anything more than a brutish sentiment celebrated by xenophobes. The more xenophobic, the more it’s celebrated.
Geoff Nunberg wrote a pretty good piece about this a while back:
http://books.google.com/books?id=1RBJ7sO8qM0C&pg=PA163&lpg=PA163&dq=nunberg+put+people+on+the+defensive&source=bl&ots=UVKUc6YtN_&sig=fJ73vZxgQmNwydjBt_qfzXbJFaU&hl=en&ei=xnIQS77OIpCiMJO6yTM&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CA8Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=&f=false
— Steve C · Nov 27, 08:48 PM · #
You know what there’s a general thing that I’m quite pissed off about that I’ve noticed. I once defended Ann Althouse from a misogynistic attack by Andrew Sullivan. Now I’m defending Jonah Goldberg from an unfair attack by Will Wilkinson. Sullivan and Wilkinson are — rightly! — admired by most the blogosphere as deep, serious and honest thinkers. But everyone slips up every once in a while.
And every time I defended against them, people responded with, essentially, “Althouse’s a nut”, “Goldberg’s an idiot and a douchebag”, etc. Even if I granted that that’s true — SO FUCKING WHAT?
Are we in a primary school yard where there are the bullies and the bullied and some get to pick on others because na na na na? By definition, no one deserves to be treated unfairly. If the Goddamn Archangel Michael descended from Heaven in all his glory, riding a winged horse of light atop a rainbow, to say something mean and unfair about Lyndon LaRouche, I like to think that I would write a freaking blog post saying “Michael was unfair to Lyndon.”
Goldberg may be every single thing you blame him for. He eats kittens for breakfast. Whatever. The fact remains that a- Wilkinson was unfair to him, and b- I disagree with Wilkinson about patriotism.
If you want to respectfully talk about that, I would love to. If you want to behave like a douchebag, you’re not welcome in my comment thread.
— PEG · Nov 28, 03:26 AM · #
What do you mean, unfairly?
— Chet · Nov 28, 03:36 AM · #
PEG,
For a geographically proximate example of what Will was talking about, I heartily encourage you to visit Gare du Nord and do a good bit of walking, especially ‘round the shops owned by Sri Lankans. If you are daring, buy a bit of official Sri Lankan Cricket team regalia and/or a “I love Mahinda Rajapakse/Sarath Fonseka” shirt and make sure it’s visible as you take the walk. Notice all the paper bills tacked onto building walls/facades, especially those written completely in Tamil(or Tamizh if you prefer.) See how long you go before gull looks from neighborhood regulars accompany every step.
The persistence of mystic nationalism engenders the worst sort of sacrifice in the pursuit of purportedly patriotic goals. It sustains international dreams of terrorist-administered states being created in otherwise unitary states which need integrity to survive.
Take this from a real refugee from the effects of mystic nationalism run amok in an ethnic diaspora, the shit just doesn’t work.
— Nayagan · Nov 28, 02:49 PM · #
Nayagan: “Take this from a real refugee from the effects of mystic nationalism run amok in an ethnic diaspora, the shit just doesn’t work.”
What you’re talking about is a diversity of (vulgar) patriotisms. You see the tensions between groups from an Archimedean bird’s eye view, and lament what might have been (one love?). But from any particular group’s perspective, patriotism (tribalism, psychological entanglement) is the tie that binds and enables; it is a superorganism’s dominant strategy in an ecosystem of superorganisms.
The trick, for the individual, is to find a superorganism that is worthy of devotion. Then you can be unironic and earnest about it, even in sophisticated company.
For me, Abstracted America is worthy of devotion: her ideals really do embody the last best hope of mankind and the better angels of our nature — even if we sometimes dance with the devil. And that’s before I get all selfish and shit and think how important it is for me and mine that America stay healthy and strong. Me uber alles implies a powerful, bulletproof USA, so I unabashedly advocate it and the patriotism it needs to survive.
— Kristoffer V. Sargent · Nov 30, 12:27 PM · #
Well expressed, Mr. Gobry. This was my exact thought when I saw Mr. Wilkinson’s silly post.
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