The Wonder of Bloggingheads
Is there any other forum in America where David Frum and Glenn Greenwald could have a conversation as good as this one, wherein Glenn Greenwald makes a persuasive case that there is epistemic closure on the left, and David Frum acknowledges that George W. Bush probably did illegal stuff, moments after rethinking the wisdom of the Bush Administration’s treatment of American citizen War on Terrorism detainees? Cable news has taught us to expect that any conversation between folks as ideologically different as these two can only devolve into a shouting match of talking points, whereas actually what happened was an interesting, productive conversation that afforded the audience the respect of treating them like intelligent people. Or maybe you’re more interested in race in America — and in that case, you won’t find a more interesting ongoing conversation than the one between Glenn Loury and John McWhorter.
UPDATE: David Frum follows up here.
“cable news has taught us to expect that any conversation between folks as ideologically different as these two can only devolve into a shouting match…”
I think you are making “cable news” into too much of a bogeyman here. Did cable news really teach us this? I think I learned it from… living? What I mean is, in your experience, are there other places where people as ideologically diverse as these two sit down and have a reasoned, productive conversation? Where? The Senate? A barroom? A college? I have never been in the Senate, but I have been in barrooms, and people tend to shout at each other when they disagree. At college, too. In fact, when someone would come to campus, people who disagreed with him would sit in the audience and hiss or shout or scream. Or whatever.
People, generally speaking, are not open-minded and curious. That’s not something new, and it’s not something you can blame on Bill O’Reilly.
— Sam M · May 7, 02:55 AM · #
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“Gentlemen, if we did for ourselves what we have done for Italy, what great scoundrels we should be.”
That’s Frum’s defense? That terrible things are a-ok if the state does them? Why are certain people so invested in seeing this guy as the new breed of “sane conservative?”
Secondly, what happens when the “scoundrel”-esque things that people do for their country also happen to help themselves to power, prestige and wealth? Does he really think that most of the bad stuff that states do are performed by self-effacing monks who lock themselves away so as to never ever profit personally from their illegal actions?
It’s good he can actually admit that illegal stuff went on, and that the Cavour quote is from a “troubling” source, but it’s really hard for me to like the guy when he’s struggling to justify terrible things that governments do, and 2 posts below this we have agents shooting corgis next to children.
Sometimes the things you do for Italy instead of yourself make you an even greater scoundrel.
— Brian Moore · May 7, 02:34 PM · #
I don’t think disagreeing with Glenn “The Last Honest Man” Greenwald is quite the same thing as epistemic closure. Most of the lefties I’ve seen depart from Greenwald on something either substantively dispute his analysis or acknowledge the legitimacy of his point while challenging the manner in which he makes it. That’s different from, say, the Manzi-Levin thing where the Cornerites avoided Manzi’s arguments and only chastized him for being too scathing.
Mike
— MBunge · May 7, 02:42 PM · #
Glenn who has a soft spot for murderous Nazi preachers with a hankering for the bar and Hamas and AQ. That was a pitiful defense of necessary tactics
in the war on Salafism, but that’s why you’re so high on him
— ian cormac · May 7, 03:53 PM · #
Closed-mindedness on the Left is a very real phenomenon- just look at the way they use the word “contrarian,” for instance. Many people miss people on the Left are often sophisticated about their closed-mindedness; Barack Obama, especially in his pre-Presidential career, made a great point of showing sympathy for his opponents’ positions. This was really more of an attempt to get inside of their misguided heads than to engage their arguments, however; in The Audacity he notes the need to understand the position of “the oppressor and the oppressed,” a formulation which obviously determines the right and wrong of things beforehand.
Formulations such as “free-market fundamentalism” to explain the development of ideas that are contrary to left-of-center wisdom are another way people have of closing off their minds. These formulations are, again, usually more sophisticated than their equivalents on the right.
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