Eyeless in Gaza
Since I’ve been nitpicking Beinart lately, let me associate myself with much of his latest piece on the flotilla incident and the Gaza embargo more generally.
If the Gaza embargo is legal (I’m not an international law expert – it would be if Gaza were an independent state, but Gaza’s status is kind of sui generis so I’m not sure) then intercepting the flotilla on the high seas was legal and, while the operation was clearly a fiasco, once the foolish decision to board with a handful of commandos (rather than disable the ships and tow them to shore) was made the use of deadly force by same in self-defense was understandable.
But whether or not the Gaza embargo is legal, the point of the flotilla was to demonstrate that the policy is morally wrong – that it’s a policy that logically requires Israel to attack ostensibly allied ships and kill civilians on board in order to prevent Gazans from importing basic supplies for normal civilian life. In this, it seems to have succeeded admirably well.
Beinart blames the Israeli leadership for this policy. But here I need to take issue with him. Take a look at the makeup of the current Knesset:
Kadima: 28 seats
Likud: 27 seats
Yisrael Beinenu: 15 seats
Labor: 13 seats
Shas: 11 seats
United Torah Judaism: 5 seats
Hadash: 4 seats
Ichud Leumi: 4 seats
Ra’am-Ta’al: 4 seats
Habayit Hayehudi: 3 seats
Balad: 3 seats
Meretz: 3 seats
The current government is led by Likud. But both the embargo and the Gaza war were launched by Kadima governments, which is now the leading opposition party. Yisrael Beitenu, Likud’s main partner, is generally understood to be to Likud’s right, and is certainly supportive of the embargo. Labor, generally understood to be to Likud’s left, and a party one would have thought would be sitting in opposition, is part of the current coalition government, and the head of the party is serving as Minister of Defense. So they must be considered supporters of the current policy. Shas and UTJ are ultra-Orthodox religious parties that have historically been willing to sit in coalition with left-wing parties, but have become increasingly hawkish over time, and are sitting in the current government. Ichud Leumi and Habayit Hayehudi are small parties to the right of Likud.
In other words: of the 120 seats in the Knesset, 106 represent parties that explicitly support the current policy (either because they sit in government or because they inaugurated the policy under the previous government), or are dissenters from further to the right.
That leaves tiny left-wing Meretz, with three seats, the former Communists of Hadash, with four seats, and the formally Arab parties, with seven seats, in opposition.
This is not a policy foisted on an Israeli public. This is not a particularly controversial policy in Israel. In the context of the Knesset that the Israeli public elected, the Gaza policy is not remotely extreme.
Beinart criticizes the American Jewish leadership for being out of step with American Jewish opinion – and it is. But it is not so clear that it is out of step with Israeli Jewish opinion.
Obviously, the complexion of the Knesset could well change with the next election. And it’s a much-noted fact that while the right wing parties get bigger and bigger, the policies espoused by the center on fundamental matters such as whether there should be a viable Palestinian state keep moving to the left. (Kadima’s stance today on this question is well to the left of where Rabin’s Labor Party was, for example, and roughly in line with where Barak’s Labor Party was.) But I think these respective moves to the left and the right are two sides of the same coin. Support for a two-state solution remains high, and the overwhelming majority of centrist leaders in Israel now support it, including a recognition that the capital of a Palestinian state will be in Jerusalem. But the Israeli Jewish public perceives these as painful retreats from a cherished dream, and as the retreats multiply and the “other side” continues to fight, the response is a kind of primal anger.
I get notes all the time from family and friends in Israel. These are generally liberal, secular people. None of them are settlers. None of them vote for Likud, to say nothing of parties further to the right. Overwhelmingly, the sentiment among people I know in Israel was in favor of the Gaza war, in favor of the embargo and blockade, in favor of a policy of collective punishment against the people of Gaza.
The reason is simple. From the perspective not only of the Israeli center but of people who consider themselves basically on the left, though not the far left, when Israel unilaterally left Gaza that meant the Gazans “got what they wanted” and left no basis for continued hostilities. The fact that, after the withdrawal, Hamas rained mortars and rockets down on Israeli territory, proved that Hamas had no “legitimate” political goals but was simply interested in destroying Israel and killing Jews. After that, whatever Gaza got, from their perspective, they had coming to them, and there’s nothing more to say.
Israel’s policy-making no longer seems to me to be particularly related to concrete policy objectives at all. Neither the Lebanon war nor the Gaza war had actual military goals. Both were essentially wars for domestic consumption. Hezbollah and Hamas were firing rockets at Israel, and Israelis were understandably furious. “Something” had to be done about that, to let the Israeli public know that their leadership felt their fury. So the government did “something.” Outsiders criticized the disproportion of the response, but the point of the response was its disproportion – not because the only thing the enemy understood was force, but because, in the absence of any way to actually solve the problem, the only thing that would convince a domestic audience that the government felt the way they did about the situation was to respond with a fury proportionate to that of the electorate.
If you think about it, though, it’s not at all hard to “understand” why Hamas launched their rockets. First of all, because they could. Israel was the enemy, fleeing with her tail between her legs. Why should they refrain from shooting? Second, of course they still had grievances. Even from the perspective of the most moderate possible interlocutor on the other side, what Israel “gave” the Palestinians by unilaterally withdrawing from Gaza didn’t remotely satisfy Palestinian grievances. Did Israel actually expect the people of Gaza to say “thank-you?”
The fact is that outside of the far left and the far right, nobody on the Israeli spectrum is particularly interested in trying to think the way a Palestinian might think. On the far right, the assumption is that the Palestinians are comprehensively unappeasable. They want what they want: all the land, with no Jews on it. They are willing to sacrifice massively, to fight and die and see their children die, for this goal. Since there is no way to satisfy that demand except by abject surrender and flight, there must be war forever. The nice thing about this line of thinking is that by following it in practice you automatically prove it to be true. On the far left, there is similarly an understanding that a Jewish state as such was always going to be an affront, and that therefore what looks like terribly painful concessions from the Israeli side looks to the other side like grudging half-measures. The assumption, however, is that there is a set of political compromises that would constitute mutual recognition of each side’s narrative, and on that basis of mutual recognition, an agreement to end the conflict is possible. In between, in the broad middle that constitutes most of the Israeli Jewish public, there is mostly fury that nothing ever seems to be enough.
How to handle Israel given the state of public opinion in that country is a difficult question to answer. On the American left, there seem to be two schools of thought. In some quarters, the assumption is that American pressure will force Israel to change course. It’s far from clear to me that this is the case. Certainly there’s little evidence that those Administrations that have been inclined to pressure Israel – Eisenhower’s, Carter’s and Bush Sr.‘s – have actually been able to materially change Israeli behavior by that means. (Whether that pressure served other American interests, as well as whether the pressurers were actually better judges of Israel’s best interests than Israel was itself, I leave aside as separate topics.) The other school holds that America should not pressure Israel specifically but, rather, gently prod both sides in the direction of a settlement, believing that only mutual confidence in America’s goodwill can get negotiations back on track, which, in turn is the only solution to the conflict. Unfortunately, there’s not a lot of evidence to back this one up either. The big moves for peace in the region were made by Sadat, Rabin, and King Hussein of Jordan. In all of these cases, actors in the region played the decisive role; in none did American hand-holding prove decisive. And the later 1990s provide a counter-example, as the Clinton Administration assiduously followed precisely this strategy, and the end result was the second Intifada.
Beinart, meanwhile, wants American Jews to pressure Israel directly. It seems to me, though, that American Jews have very little to bargain with, emotionally, in this contest. Why would an Israeli listen to a lecture from an American Jew about the moral failings of a country his or her children are not willing to risk their lives to defend? And if the argument is that, if Israel doesn’t change, then American Jews will grow alienated from her, an Israeli might well answer: really? Is that a threat? You want me to care whether you love me or not? The very fact that you consider threatening to withhold your love proves that you already don’t love me enough for me to care.
And, honestly, it’s less and less clear that Israeli Jews are even willing to listen to their own people when what they hear is uncongenial. A poll of Israeli Jews was taken in April to assess their support for free expression. A variety of questions were asked, but the most telling, it seems to me, was this one:
65 percent of all of those questioned think the Israeli media should be barred from publishing news that defense officials think could endanger state security, even if the news was reported abroad.
It’s an interesting question how publishing news that is already reported elsewhere could possibly endanger state security. I interpret this result to mean that, when it comes to certain kinds of unpleasant information, 65 percent just don’t want to hear about it.
Is that the way a people that is winning behaves? I don’t think so.
This analysis seems sound, which makes it all the more depressing. Thanks for doing the extra research and analysis to go beyond instinctive responses.
— Greg Sanders · Jun 2, 12:24 PM · #
Agreed, this is an excellent post.
Please allow me to nitpick. While the reaction from the bulk of Israelis might be, “The very fact that you consider threatening to withhold your love proves that you already don’t love me enough for me to care,” the motivation expressed by Beinart et al is, “we love you enough that we don’t care to see you continue to self-destruct.”
A parent might cut off a child’s cocaine money, and the US might reduce its funding of Israeli purchases of US weaponry, if the cocaine and the weaponry aren’t being used in a manner that furthers security.
Yes, the Israeli public is in an angry mood— just as was the US’s public when we decided to invade Iraq. Now that, as some GOP representatives have put it, “almost all of us [GOP Congressmen] think [the invasion] was a horrible mistake,” it is all the more clear how much better an ally Britain would have been had it tried to talk us down from our mania.
— Elvis Elvisberg · Jun 2, 12:38 PM · #
Noah, I would respectfully suggest that there’s a third option when addressing the question of “how to handle Israel given the state of public opinion in that country”: distance ourselves from Israel, at least this government. Make it clear that while Israel is entitled to its opinion about what is in its best interest, it isn’t entitled to American support in those decisions, certainly not automatic American support.
The American problem vis-a-vis Israel at this time is the agita and grief it causes us with the rest of the world. Some distancing might change this.
Of course, as Beinart has documented, such a position would be depicted as hostility towards Israel. But the goal wouldn’t be to force Israel to do what it doesn’t want to do — it would be to keep the likes of Avigdor Lieberman and Netanyahu would dragging us into their machinations. It would be to keep them from exercising a kind of veto over our relationships with the likes of Turkey.
I’ve been “A World Undone,” a history of WWI. I’m struck by how junior partners like Serbia and Austria made their problems and priorities the problems of their more-powerful patrons. I’m not equating Israel to the Hapsburgs or Serbia but the cliche about the tail wagging the dog does come to mind.
— Roberto · Jun 2, 01:10 PM · #
On the far left, there is similarly an understanding that a Jewish state as such was always going to be an affront, and that therefore what looks like terribly painful concessions from the Israeli side looks to the other side like grudging half-measures. The assumption, however, is that there is a set of political compromises that would constitute mutual recognition of each side’s narrative, and on that basis of mutual recognition, an agreement to end the conflict is possible.
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
This is the basic assumption of the peace process and the desire of most Jews outside of Israeli as well. If it is mistaken and there is no overlap between each side’s view of what is an acceptable resolution of the conflict, then there is no basis for further Israeli compromises to obtain what will never satisfy the Palestinians. In such a case, it seems to me that the Israeli anger is actually quite rational. And perhaps the Palestinians should not have shot at Israel after they left Gaza because they are really interested in building their own state and not just destroying somebody else’s. Mr. Millman, do you think Israel can affect their choice?
— Gil Franco · Jun 2, 01:25 PM · #
Sorry :(
— Gil Franco · Jun 2, 01:27 PM · #
Had things gone even slightly differently—had, say, the organizers of the flotilla been more interested in delivering humanitarian relief to Gaza, rather than in causing a provocation, and reaping the benefits of world sympathy and outrage, you wouldn’t be writing this column. There were negotiations to bring the supplies in via an Israeli port, but the sponsors refused. Any calculation of possible outcomes would have to have included the possibility of violent confrontation, which the flotilla courted, since they were notified that they would face resistance. They bear as much responsibility for the bloodshed as Israel does.
Hamas didn’t have to say thank you, Noah. They only had to begin building their own, viable state, while refraining from violent provocations like raining missiles down on Israel. How can you view the attempt to end an incessant fusillade of thousands of missiles as no more than a psychological need to act, without any particular goal? Did they fail to uproot Hamas, once and for all? Yes. But did they have a goal? Yes. Hamas had the chance to start building effective institutions of state, and to develop a peaceful commerce with its Arab neighbor, Egypt. Instead, they provoked the Egyptians into closing their border, murdered their counterparts in Fatah, and kept up their incessant war of attrition against Israel. But we all know this.
The truth is, sooner or later, the unrelenting pressure exerted on Israel causes even sympathizers, Jewish and non-Jewish, to succumb to the temptation to cut the Israelis loose, and so avoid the burden of trying defend the justified choices made by Israeli leaders in the time of war, and to criticize Israel when criticism is warranted, without giving in to the unseemly piling on of all the self-appointed experts throughout the blogosphere who don’t have the first understanding of the politics or history of the region.
It requires moral strength to endure the opprobrium that invariably attaches to anyone who, on balance, defends Israel generally, in this hysterical world climate. I think the toughest question we have to ask ourselves isn’t whether American Jews offer Israel unconditional support, but whether our choices and opinions aren’t being subtly reformed by the fear and shame that is generated by such unrelenting hostility.
— fw · Jun 2, 01:41 PM · #
A good post. Here’s one question:
Neither the Lebanon war nor the Gaza war had actual military goals
I’ve heard this before. But why isn’t ‘killing many Hamas guys’ an actual military goal? It’s not a decisive strategic goal, it doesn’t change the state of play, but it makes Israel’s enemy weaker. And it enforces consequences on Gaza of hosting rocket attacks on Israel. If I were an Israeli citizen I wouldn’t see this as a meaningless domestic PR move. I’d see this as gaining an incremental advantage by military means. What am I missing?
— Ben A · Jun 2, 01:46 PM · #
That doesn’t follow. Speed limits on American highways may be legal, but that doesn’t mean that American cops can go to Canada and enforce them. Borders exist; the represent the limit of a nation’s sovereignty. You’re saying that Israeli sovereignty exists throughout the world and we are all subject to it, regardless of where we live.
Well, I don’t get to vote in Israel, so I reject their sovereignty over me.
— Chet · Jun 2, 01:51 PM · #
The problem is that American “pressure” has never amounted to anything more than a few platitudes, all while we continue providing billions of dollars in foreign aid.
Cut off the pipeline. Then maybe they’ll listen.
— Travis Mason-Bushman · Jun 2, 02:19 PM · #
It’s not a decisive strategic goal, it doesn’t change the state of play, but it makes Israel’s enemy weaker,
Does it really? Have the attacks stopped? Has Hamas lost support within Gaza? Has world public opinion turned?
No, no, no and no.
Hamas can easily afford to lose guys. Haven’t you noticed the birthrates in Gaza? Every new Israeli attack is a giant recruiting advertisement. The more they can paint conditions in Gaza as Israel’s fault, the more their people believe Hamas is a righteous freedom-fighter movement.
— Travis Mason-Bushman · Jun 2, 02:26 PM · #
…the organizers of the flotilla been more interested in delivering humanitarian relief to Gaza, rather than in causing a provocation…
Why couldn’t it be both? And what’s wrong with causing a peaceful provocation? Worried that peaceful provocation might actually be effective, are you?
Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and Mahatma Gandhi both peacefully provoked those they fought. Both ended up winning the wars.
If the Palestinians start taking pages from their books, Israel’s claim to moral high ground looks a lot more tenuous.
— Travis Mason-Bushman · Jun 2, 02:31 PM · #
Here’s a cheery thought.
The Obama Administration (correctly) informs Israel that it has to play nice with its long-time pals in the Middle East, Turkey and Egypt, and even make new friends, up to and including Hamas and the Palestinian Authority.
Bibi What A Yahoo and Avigdor Lieberman (the latter being the real muscle in Israel) refuse to do so.
Bibi and his Boss, Lieberman, then announce the hiring of Alan Dershowitz as Israel’s envoy to the United States and move Mikey Oren over to the United Nations.
Then, just for giggles, Bibi and his Boss, Lieberman, decide to attack Iran. Better yet, simply to keep things interesting, Bibi and his Boss, Lieberman, opt to drop a small nuclear weapon on Iran’s believed and/or perceived (and these days, with Mossad, can you or Israel really be sure?) nuclear weapons sites.
Bibi and his Boss, Lieberman, then threaten to drop a nuclear device on any and all nations (including the United States under the Obama Administration) that challenge Israel decision in Iran or any further decisions Israel makes elsewhere in the world.
What do we do then?
Or will this never happen?
— Mark · Jun 2, 02:47 PM · #
Yeah, your analysis about Israeli society is well on the mark. A vicious circle of ever-growing solipsism, self-righteousness, self-pity, intolerance, impatience & weariness – one major side effect of which is growing incompetence in dealing with outside challenges.
Another element is the ridiculous degree of IDF-worship that goes on. After the fiasco Netanyahu declared that he ‘stands by the IDF’ – I mean isn’t it supposed to be the other way around? The soldiers who stormed the ship are described as ‘our children’ who narrowly escaped a lynching, and to whom the public should be thankful for.
Your discussion of American options seems to be a bit limited – I’m sure the American options are both narrower (because of Congress) and wider than that offered on the Clinton-Carter spectrum (and of course the American right has quite a different agenda – mainstream Republicans seem to be very pro-Israel). Another possibility is that the administration might be forced to abandon Israel at some stage – say in the case of Israel vs. Turkey conflict. Of course if this happens it will be at a very inopportune occasion from an Israeli perspective.
— Danny · Jun 2, 02:58 PM · #
Chet, I think the contention is that when a ship is notified of a blockade, and then it plainly attempts (or indicates an imminent attempt) to break the blockade, it is at that point legal for the country in question to to intercept the ship, even in international waters. like Noah I don’t know so much about international law, so I don’t know whether what I’ve just described is actually true, but that’s the argument being made.
Noah, let me start by echoing others in the thread – praise you for digging into Israel’s complicated coalition politics, where most pundits fear to tread. Your assessment of the parties is accurate to the best of my knowledge. I think you only need to incorporate two more factors to get the whole picture:
1) The process of forming a governing coalition in a parliamentary democracy is usually chaotic, but in 2008-2009 it was especially so in Israel. Without acknowledging the closeness of the vote, and the consequent political maneuvering, it becomes too easy to simplify complicated political positions. Just by way of example: you cite Labor’s inclusion in the coalition as evidence that the center left in Israel supports the Gaza blockade. But Labor joined the coalition for a whole litany of political reasons that had nothing to do with ideology — to grow their party, to restore credibility to themselves, to keep Ehud Barak in a position of influence, to try to force Kadima to make a better deal, etc. I’m sure there are Labor MP’s and supporters who do back the blockade, but I’m equally sure there are many who do not, and it would not surprise me to learn that the latter are in the majority. (Another way of saying this would be: if Labor were leading the coalition, I think it’s likely the blockade would be at least heavily modified, if not lifted.)
When you begin to factor in coalition politics, especially at the leadership level, I think the picture you have painted here starts to fragment significantly in a lot of ways. As you mention, there are many parties whose support for “the left” or “the right” in Israel (positions which most of us would characterize based on foreign policy, rather than domestic policy) evolves, sometimes very quickly, in the opposite direction. You cite UTJ and Shas, rightly. And yet this is another false positive, or so I think. In fact, both of these parties care very little about foreign policy, so long as they meet their domestic goals, which are wholly concerned with protecting religious rights for the ultra-Orthodox, and keeping taxes on large families low. Again, that doesn’t mean that as a bloc they are opposed to the blockade, and I’m sure there are some among their number who favor it. But if the current Israeli government were left of center, rather than right, I wouldn’t be surprised to see Shas and UTJ support its foreign policy goals in exchange for the domestic protections and expansions that they want.
I could go on, but I think you begin to get the idea. In coalition politics, it is very dangerous to begin ascribing one particular view on one particular issue to broad swaths of politicians, let alone the general population. There is simply too much dealmaking going on to get an accurate read that way.
2) I think you would be well served to take a closer look at the alternatives – or lack thereof – to blockade that have been presented to Israelis, both by their own government and by the international community. You will find that, as I bet you already suspect, there are very few. Peter Beinart’s very smart piece points out all of the abuses of the Gaza blockade, but I wonder whether Israelis are particularly aware of these. I suspect most Israelis view their choice as zero-sum: blockade Gaza and decrease rocket fire, or lift the blockade and live with the rockets again, or worse. Given that choice, it does not surprise me that Israelis choose the former.
The sad fact is that there is no credible Israeli leader that has proposed a workable alternative to total blockade. I think a system of rigorous inspection of goods that still allowed for travel into and out of the strip, as well as exports, and a lifting of unreasonable bans on imports, would be a much better solution to this problem. Perhaps the Israelis would agree — but they have not been given this option by the leadership, or by the US or any other third-party actors.
Although I believe their gesture was deliberately (and, contra Travis, violently) provocative, I feel a great deal of sadness for the demonstrators who were killed. I hope that their deaths can at least allow the Knesset to put a weakened blockade on the table. Then they will have done some good.
— max · Jun 2, 03:23 PM · #
and, contra Travis, violently
Well, all the evidence suggests you’re wrong. There were no weapons of substance aboard the ships and the “violence” employed by those aboard was completely proportionate to legitimate self-defense against unknown armed boarding parties.
— Travis Mason-Bushman · Jun 2, 03:37 PM · #
Take the paragraph that describes Israel’s policy as not related to concrete policy objectives. Replace references to Israel with USA, and references to Lebanon and Gaza wars with Afghanistan and Iraq wars. This country’s motivations were similar, and look at the mess we are in.
— JDS · Jun 2, 03:51 PM · #
Chet, my guess is you don’t even think the blockade is legal in Israeli or Palestinian waters, but once you grant Noah’s point that it is, then international law grants Israel the right to enforce the blockade in international waters. Hamas is at war with Israel, and by setting up a flotilla to run the blockade, the flotilliers were joining that war.
Now the specific response (placing Israeli soldiers one by one in a potentially hostile crowd, aimed with paint guns) was brain-dead. I would think it would be fairly simple to jam the ship’s propellers and just tow it where you want it, but I guess I’ve never looked into it, so I may be wrong.
— J Mann · Jun 2, 03:59 PM · #
Travis, I’d rather not derail this thread into being the same thing that the rest of the internet is arguing over, so I hope you won’t be annoyed that this is my final comment on this particular question. (Although of course I’ll still read whatever you write back with.)
I question your framing. The boarding parties were not in any way “unknown”. Who they were and what they intended to do were totally clear to those aboard ship #6. (Israeli commandos, boarding the ship to pilot it to harbor in Ashdod.) I don’t know how one would measure the “proportionality” of self-defense, but I question the premise that this constitutes self-defense. The commandos never had any intention of harming those aboard the ship, as their slow deployment and lack of shooting would indicate. Clearly, demonstrators on the other five boats, where no violent encounters occurred, understood this basic fact. That alone leaves me doubtful that there could have been much question in the minds of the demonstrators aboard ship #6 as to what the Israelis intended to do (commandeer the ship), and how they intended to do it (non-violently.) The timing of the violence, as well — the demonstrators setting upon the commandos as they came off their ropes onto the ship — is highly suggestive to me. Even if the Israelis had intended to threaten or assault the demonstrators, they could not have had time to do so. Unless one considers the very act of the Israelis boarding the ship a violent provocation — and I know some do, perhaps you among them — it’s hard to see how the Israelis “started it”.
For your version of events to be more persuasive to me, at the very least this flotilla would need to have been without precedent. But this is not the case, as you’re likely aware. The Free Gaza movement has sent many such ships and rafts in the past, and they have always been confronted — peacefully, but decisively — by the Israeli navy. This flotilla was larger than past trips, and had more PR, but the fundamentals remained the same. What, then, could have confused those aboard into believing that their lives were in danger this time, unlike any other time, and that they needed to engage in violent self-defense?
Perhaps details will emerge that prove the Israelis shot first, or in some other way provoked a violent response. I very much doubt it, though. There is a tremendous amount of video evidence that seems to back up the Israeli story — that they were attacked first — and it’s hard for me to imagine what could have happened off-camera to change the context enough for this to be reinterpreted.
At the political level, as well, the calculation seems clear. The Israelis had every incentive to end this confrontation without any violence. The demonstrators, however, could only gain from a real fight (as we’ve seen in the aftermath). Motive does not imply guilt, and I wouldn’t take that on its own as an indictment of the demonstrators. But I do think it must be factored in.
If you are among those who believe the Israelis boarding the ship at all constituted a violent provocation, then I guess we will be at loggerheads. There are plenty of difficult questions to ask regarding the legality of Israel’s treatment of Gazans, but it seems clear to me that what the demonstrators were doing — attempting to break the blockade of a sovereign country — was (also) illegal. Granting that, I don’t see a role for violent self-defense in reaction to a country doing nothing more than policing its own blockade.
There is a curious sort of circular logic at play here, as well, that I wonder if you notice. When it is acknowledged that the demonstrators broke the law, MLK and Gandhi are invoked in their defense — satyagraha and so forth. Yet when it is then pointed out that there was not much about the actions of the demonstrators that could be classified as “nonviolent” (their weapons were…crappy? the bar for nonviolence has lowered a great deal, apparently), we suddenly move to an argument from self-defense. Of course, it is hard to understand how demonstrators purposefully engaging in illegal activity (a la King and Gandhi) have a right to violent self-defense (which those two titans of civil disobedience never used). Do you see the pattern? “Civil disobedience BUT self-defense BUT civil disobedience BUT self-defense.” I don’t know whether it’s possible to have it both ways, but as you no doubt guess I suspect it is not.
— max · Jun 2, 04:04 PM · #
Excellent analysis, Noah.
America is an enabler in a dysfunctional relationship.
The Israelis wont get pragmatic and practical until America cuts them off.
And we should do it as soon as possible.
I wondered why Obama was so politic in his non-condemnation, even to angering our vastly more important regional ally, Turkey.
Israel just makes trouble for us, lets face it.
I think if Israel senses impending American disengagement…..they will nuke a uranium enrichment site in Iran. They do care quite a bit about what American jews think. And American jews are pretty divergent and there is a lot of questioning of Israeli policy. An emerging trend.
So Israel might go right from “you don’t love me any more” to “i’ll make you love me, or at least force you to defend me in a global thermonuclear war before its too late”.
I’m a sufi revert.
And you guys won’t like this, but I think it is absolutely neccessary…this is what muslims my age are unified on, even the hyper-educated high-IQ ones I talk to.
The West must acknowledge the unfairness of the creation of Israel.
This has nothing to with right to exist…of course Israel has a right to exist…now.
And trust me, that push to sea is empty rhetoric and hyperbole….Hamas knows they can’t wipe Israel out.
But the beating heart of al-Islam is justice.
And the creation of Israel in Palestine is an unhealing wound.
— matoko_chan · Jun 2, 04:10 PM · #
wallah…..considering how heavy the Turkish involvement was….and the Israelis knew that….
and Turkey being 98.9 nominally muslim according to the CIA factbook….
Perhaps the partial intent was also to break up America and Turkey.
It seems America can only have one bff in MENA.
Jealous Israel says, show me that you still love me best of all.
lawl.
— matoko_chan · Jun 2, 04:23 PM · #
J Mann, you’re not looking at this from a PR/propaganda perspective.
From the standpoint of the protest, any move by Israel which stopped the ship from delivering its peaceful cargo was a victory — serving to demonstrate the moral bankruptcy of an indiscriminate blockade. Even if Israel had stopped the ship more “peacefully,” the point would have been made.
It just so happens Israel chose perhaps the most brutal method possible short of just sinking it with gunfire.
— Travis Mason-Bushman · Jun 2, 04:29 PM · #
What Israel faces in its security environment is too far from American experience for our views (Jewish or otherwise) to be relevant to them. The only question that matters is whether we as Americans want to continue to associate ourselves with the actions they take in addressing that environment. If we do, we should obviously expect no change in their behavior. If or when we disassociate ourselves from their actions, from there, it is up to Israel whether different American positions will affect the calculation of their actions.
— Michael Drew · Jun 2, 04:33 PM · #
Max,
A commitment to non-violence implies renouncing violence as a means of seeking political change. It does not imply renouncing the right to reasonable self-defense. If I’m standing on a street corner with a sign and someone punches me, I do not have to stand there and let them beat me up. The fact that I conducted a peaceful protest and they responded to it by initiating violence is the demonstration of my moral superiority.
Sending armed heli-borne commandos to storm a unarmed ship carrying peaceful cargo in international waters is an inherently violent act of provocation by Israeli forces. Responding to that hostile act by throwing the commandos overboard and whacking them with wooden batons is justifiable self-defense.
— Travis Mason-Bushman · Jun 2, 04:36 PM · #
Have the attacks stopped?
This seems like a high bar if the question is “did Israel gain an incremental military advantage.” To answer that question one would want to know not just if the attacks stopped entirely, but whether they have been meaningfully reduced. And my sense of that (although I’ve seen little analysis) is that rocket attacks have decreased. I think I recall correctly that Hamas has announced a ceasefire.
Has Hamas lost support within Gaza? Has world public opinion turned?
These are exactly the types of ‘strategic’ aspects that I would agree have not been in any way resolved by Israeli actions in Gaza.
— Ben A · Jun 2, 05:21 PM · #
matoko:
purely out of curiosity, do you have an anecdotal take on whether it would matter if it was jews/israelis who acknowledged this, or the world community at large?
— max · Jun 2, 05:38 PM · #
I think I recall correctly that Hamas has announced a ceasefire.
This would suggest, then, that the blockade should be lifted, as the legitimate government of the territory has agreed to stop doing what ostensibly provoked its imposition, yes?
Or is the blockade really just a punitive measure designed to keep the Palestinian people in a state of perpetual poverty and despair, as its critics would contend?
— Travis Mason-Bushman · Jun 2, 05:45 PM · #
“Sending armed heli-borne commandos to storm a unarmed ship carrying peaceful cargo in international waters is an inherently violent act of provocation by Israeli forces.”
No. Neutral ships approaching a blockaded port are REQUIRED to submit to search by the naval forces of the blockading party. That search may be conducted in international waters. Obviously the ships must be unarmed and carrying peaceful cargo: if they were warships carrying weapons they wouldn’t be stopped and searched, they would be blown out of the water without warning. This is Maritime Law 101.
There is no “right of self-defense” by merchant ships against blockaders. They MUST submit to search. Of course, they may choose to become belligerents. The first step in that process would be to relinquish their Turkish flag, and assume some other, since Turkey has not become a belligerent.
— y81 · Jun 2, 05:50 PM · #
Doesn’t this incident make it more likely that Israel will go rogue on Iran? Humiliation, isolation, stupidity, volatility, genuine domestic fear and loathing, international gridlock, a ticking clock, and a feeling that “even my friends don’t understand me anymore.” Doesn’t this lead to Netanyahu et al. telling themselves that it’s now or never, both existentially (for Israel) and politically (for them)?
Subjectively, the overlap will not be doubted. The only people who might convince them otherwise are outside the country pointing fingers.
— Kristoffer V. Sargent · Jun 2, 05:51 PM · #
These are exactly the types of ‘strategic’ aspects that I would agree have not been in any way resolved by Israeli actions in Gaza.
Yes, but therein lies the rub. Tactical superiority is no advantage in asymmetric warfare, because your opponents’ goal isn’t to defeat you militarily, but politically. Israel may have “won” control of the ships and defended its blockade, but they’ve been slaughtered on the battlefield of world public opinion. One immediate impact: Egypt reopened the Gaza border.
The U.S. won battle after battle in Vietnam with (usually) complete tactical superiority. Didn’t matter, because the strategy was an epic fail.
— Travis Mason-Bushman · Jun 2, 06:01 PM · #
y81, you can argue the technicalities of maritime law all you want. The fact is, sending armed commandos to storm an unarmed ship in international waters is an overt hostile act.
Beyond that, it really doesn’t matter what legality you can come up with — this case is being judged in the court of public opinion, and the verdict is already in on Israel’s actions.
I’m sure Bull Connor found some technicality of law justifying his police thugs aiming fire hoses at peaceful demonstrators in the streets of Birmingham. “Crowd control” of an illegal assembly, maybe. Doesn’t change the fact that those images changed the course of history.
— Travis Mason-Bushman · Jun 2, 06:09 PM · #
I’m sorry, I forgot that liberals and Israel-haters (but I repeat myself) don’t believe in law.
— y81 · Jun 2, 07:35 PM · #
C’mon. Nothing is “imminent” when you’re 72 miles away. What you’re saying is that Israel could have fired on the ships as they were steaming out of their Turkish port – for that matter, as they sat at anchor being loaded up with wheelchairs and portland cement. Does that make sense to you? That Israel somehow has the authority to kill people no matter where they may be, all to interdict a shipment of musical instruments and used clothing to the people of Gaza?
— Chet · Jun 2, 07:46 PM · #
max…
acknowledged what?
i think Israel deliberately attacked a largely turkish/muslim convoy because they feel America is getting too cozy with the Turks.
They muffed the delivery, and lost this battle of the meme-war because of their bunker mentality and their belief that Holocaust-guilt makes them bulletproof.
Well muslims don’t feel Holocaust-guilt.
That is westerners.
I think Israel needs to acknowledge injustice when and where it happened/happens, and whether it happens to muslims or jews.
— matoko_chan · Jun 2, 08:02 PM · #
Chet – so…you are arguing that the flotilla might not have breached the blockade? I don’t really understand this line of argument. Their stated intention, broadcast to anyone interested, was to breach the blockade. Israel intercepted them en route to doing so. How many miles away they were seems like a splitting of hairs to me, but maybe I’m just dense.
Matoko: I was referring to this “The West must acknowledge the unfairness of the creation of Israel.” but the answer to my question is right in there, so never mind. Reading too fast.
— max · Jun 2, 08:10 PM · #
“Doesn’t this incident make it more likely that Israel will go rogue on Iran? Humiliation, isolation, stupidity, volatility, genuine domestic fear and loathing, international gridlock, a ticking clock, and a feeling that “even my friends don’t understand me anymore.” Doesn’t this lead to Netanyahu et al. telling themselves that it’s now or never, both existentially (for Israel) and politically (for them)?”
totally agree, KVS.
if Obama had condemned them they might have launched already.
— matoko_chan · Jun 2, 08:11 PM · #
“ Their stated intention, broadcast to anyone interested, was to breach the blockade.”
But their unstated intention was to draw attention to the plight of Gaza.
And that was wildly successful.
Israel’s unstated intention was to force the US to choose between Turkey and Israel, and demonstrate fealty.
Israel is more and more like a crazy girlfriend the US is trying to let down easy.
— matoko_chan · Jun 2, 08:15 PM · #
Chet, I said that liberals don’t care about law, but now it seems that they don’t care about facts either. You are suggesting that the ship in question was not heading to Gaza? Is there any evidence to support that contention? (I guess liberals don’t care about evidence either.)
— y81 · Jun 2, 08:18 PM · #
It’s not the miles, it’s the border. You may have sped on every highway from Chihuahua to Vancouver, but the Federales can’t pick you up in Kansas. It’s not just a matter of “miles”, it’s a matter of Israel acting outside their jurisdiction.
Not at all. Of course they were going to Gaza. But they had been “going to Gaza” for weeks, now. They were on their way to Gaza when they were loading their cargo of unadulterated threat to Israeli sovereignty, also known as “wheelchairs and used clothing”, at anchor.
If an “inspection stop” can take the form of unannounced commandos from a helicopter at midnight, in international waters, what’s the legal principle that would prevent it from taking the form of a torpedo in a Turkish harbor?
There’s a basic moral principle at work, here. Nobody would defend a policeman who fired indiscriminately on a crowd in order to stop a purse snatcher. But mention that he’s an Israeli cop, and suddenly people are all like “what do you expect? He was getting away with a purse!“ and “if those people didn’t want to get shot, they shouldn’t have stood downfield of a thief!”
I mean, I get it. Rocket attacks from Gaza. That really sounds like it sucks. But does that really justify killing a dozen people just to keep Gaza free of wheelchairs and drywall? Make that make sense to me.
— Chet · Jun 2, 08:34 PM · #
I’m sorry, I forgot that liberals and Israel-haters (but I repeat myself) don’t believe in law.
I dont hate Israel.
But I think the majick shield of holocaust guilt is wearing thin.
and so is the US pocketbook and patience.
— matoko_chan · Jun 2, 08:50 PM · #
Chet, you mean you are seriously interested in the rules and learning to think like a lawyer? OK, the rule is that there are two sorts of places in the world: those subject to the control of a sovereign, and those not. In places subject to the control of a sovereign, such as the highways of the United States, ONLY the agents of the United States may arrest you. (Although, if you were kidnapped and brought to Mexico, the Mexican courts would have jurisdiction to try and convict you based on your physical presence. Many people don’t like this rule, but it is well-established.) Similarly, in the ports of Turkey, only Turkish officials may enforce the laws. Pretty simple rule.
Another sort of place is the high seas. Here, international law applies. International law provides (I’ll keep saying it until you get it) that vessels of a sovereign power enforcing a blockade have the right to intercept neutral vessels and search them for contraband. Neutral vessels which resist search may be fired upon.
— y81 · Jun 2, 08:56 PM · #
Israelis celebrating the attack on the Mavi Marmara.
— matoko_chan · Jun 2, 09:09 PM · #
y81, you’re not getting it. “The law” is only as important as the moral force behind it.
Bull Connor presumably had “the law” behind him in breaking up illegal street-blocking protests with fire hoses and police dogs. Unfortunately for him and his segregationist ilk, his application of the law in a disproportionately brutal and violent manner so shocked public opinion that the minor violation involved in the protest was forgotten.
Israel may have had “the law” behind it in sending armed heli-borne commandos to seize a peaceful, unarmed ship carrying humanitarian supplies. Unfortunately for them, their application of the law in a disproportionately brutal and violent manner so shocked public opinion that the minor violation involved in the protest was forgotten.
— Travis Mason-Bushman · Jun 2, 09:25 PM · #
Put another way, which is a worse crime: a shipment of old clothes, toys and wheelchairs breaching a questionable blockade, or the violent deaths of 10 people?
Unless you’re morally warped, the choice is easy.
— Travis Mason-Bushman · Jun 2, 09:30 PM · #
Call me glib, but it seems like all the stakeholders are getting what they wanted out of this dust-up.
— Tony Comstock · Jun 2, 09:49 PM · #
I’ll take your word for it, since you give no citation (and I’ve seen the exact opposite asserted on other blogs.) But again – isn’t this overbroad? Their intentions to run the blockade were announced well in advance. So why not have “searched” them (you know, with their guns) as soon as they left Turkish waters?
And, again, what is it about a load of concrete and used clothing that demanded a dozen lives be lost, er it be allowed to reach the shores of Gaza? Are you making any effort whatsoever to justify the murder of civilians in the middle of the night by unannounced “inspectors”? (Does the Israeli Coast Guard regularly drop commandos from helicopters?)
— Chet · Jun 2, 09:56 PM · #
As long as the rocket bombardment against Israel, coming out of Gaza continues, Israel can invoke Article 51 of the UN Charter to justify imposing a naval blockade on Gaza.
If foreign nations continue to sponsor blockade-busting missions, (e.g. Ireland or Turkey again) then I think the simplest solution for Israel is just to mine the ports of Gaza. A few dozen smart naval mines would significantly complicate life for the blockade-busters, without causing too much further embarrassment to Israel. “After all we advised you to stop and let us guide you to a safe dock”.
So I expect, if the pressure on Israel continues, Israel will end up enforcing the blockade by mining the ports of Gaza – the same way US President Nixon mined the ports and harbors of North Vietnam, to restrain the flow of matériel, during the latter stages of the Vietnam War.
— Keid A · Jun 2, 10:15 PM · #
The last rocket attack against Israel was in March. (One person died in that attack.) That attack had been the first since the Gaza war. The rocket attacks that provoked the Gaza war came after a six-month cease-fire.
All throughout that time, the blockade against Gaza had been in place. I have to ask, when do we stop saying that the blockade is in response to the rocket attacks, and start recognizing that the rocket attacks are in response to a blockade that Israel never intends to lift?
— Chet · Jun 2, 10:25 PM · #
That’s like saying the suicide bombers have stopped, let’s take down the fence.
— Keid A · Jun 2, 10:45 PM · #
Well, so? It’s walls forever? No end to pointless civilian deaths? No wheelchairs or musical instruments for the people of Gaza for all eternity?
Don’t you think that’s the kind of oppression that, I dunno, might make somebody want to shoot off some rockets?
— Chet · Jun 2, 11:32 PM · #
Wait, Matoko, you’re Muslim? I just always assumed from your comments that you would be atheist or agnostic. Do you really believe in Allah, or some kind of non-physical presence?
— J · Jun 2, 11:54 PM · #
Well, so? It’s walls forever?
I don’t believe so Chet. I believe Western power and influence in the MENA region will collapse in the next decade or two. I think we might be better, thinking about how we will resettle a few million Jews in America, Canada, Australia, etc. as their position becomes increasingly untenable in Israel.
That’s why the most interesting thing about this confrontation is not the reaction of Israel, which was all-too-predictable. The really interesting thing was that Turkey – Israel’s former friend – is now sponsoring blockade-running missions. And that’s even in advance of the latest confrontations.
I suspect it’s an early sign of the unraveling of the Western-dominated order. I think it is no accident that it follows so close on the euro’s near-death experience. I suspect it means Turkey has seen the writing on the wall and has made a strategic decision to realign its interests.
I doubt that Turkey will be the last nation to do so.
— Keid A · Jun 2, 11:59 PM · #
Well, that’s certainly… interesting. Seems like we could drop a million Jews into Wyoming, though, and nobody would notice.
— Chet · Jun 3, 12:09 AM · #
Same here in Western Australia. Anywhere really.
— Keid A · Jun 3, 12:14 AM · #
J
im a mevlevi sufi revert.
the sufi, like the jews, do not proselytize.
i generally confine my religious views to TalkIslam.
i have, however, started a weekly diary at dKos on religion
this weekend’s topic will be the existence of god.
feel free to drop by.
;)
— matoko_chan · Jun 3, 12:14 AM · #
I find it a bit odd that you ended a good piece by misunderstanding the poll taken. In America, we do not know what it is like to live with your enemy. For the most part we have the feeling that ‘we are here, and they are over there’. Those in Israel do not live like that.
Though this is an extremely crude example, it is the best I can muster right now. As a Red Sox fan, it is extremely difficult to sit and watch a game against the Yankees with Yankee fans sitting right there. There could be a whole room of Sox fans, but if the Yankees are winning, any mouthing off from the Yankee fan is extremely infuriating….. and this is only sports…. in America! I just live next to people who love baseball as much as I but root for a different team. How different it must be to live in a land where your neighbor hates you so passionately that they can walk with you, talk with you, eat with you, and at the same time, wish that you, your family, your friends, all your past acquaintances, all your past history, and sacred sites were completely wiped from the world in the most horrible manner of death and suffering they can think up!! How different indeed!
So I politely disagree. The poll did not show that the Israelis didn’t want to hear unpleasant information. The poll showed that they did not want their enemy, who is potentially sitting in the coffee shop with them reading the same paper and watching the same TV report, to be given further reason, provocation, or permission to destroy them.
— MarkV · Jun 3, 01:17 AM · #
Wow, given the topic, this is quite a polite and reasonable comments section. The formatting of Matoko’s offerings still make me want to gauge my eyes out — what do you have against paragraphs? — but all in all I’m impressed.
— conor friedersdorf · Jun 3, 06:43 AM · #
im low verbal.
if i could write in equations instead of sentences i would.
— matoko_chan · Jun 3, 08:06 AM · #
Is that the way a people that is winning behaves?
nah….that is the way a crazy ex-girlfriend behaves.
— matoko_chan · Jun 3, 11:49 AM · #
Chet,
Also remember, this wasn’t the only major policy decision that Turkey made recently. There was also the decision to intervene with Brazil in the Iranian enrichment standoff with US/Israel.
US policy-makers seemed to think the proposal was totally out of left-field. I thought it indicates that Turkey aims to become a major player in the region again. This intervention in Gaza is then the second significant move.
I suspect there is a subtext here. After the US withdraws from Iraq, if Iran can dream of reviving the Savafid empire, then maybe someone in Turkey is thinking, why then not the Ottomans?
Post-Western MENA is starting to take shape. The former players are marking out spheres of influence. This isn’t just Arabs and Persians – the Turks were major regional players too.
— Keid A · Jun 3, 05:25 PM · #
I don’t think the line that maybe what Israel did was perfectly legal, but it was a public relations mistake, will fly. The plain fact is: “The Catholics hate the Protestants/And the Protestants hate the Catholics./The Hindus hate the Muslims/And everybody hates the Jews.” For that reason, Israel will always lose the battle for world public opinion. The only way to change that would be for the Jews worldwide to change their behavior and beliefs, which isn’t going to happen.
(Recall that, as Millman himself noted, the standard Gentile response to a garden variety, banal Jewish sermon is a hostile perception that the Jews are bigots. And as Millman said at the time: Too bad, we’re not changing to satisfy other people.)
— y81 · Jun 4, 08:45 AM · #
y81, here is a bit of history for you.
The blockade started after Hamas was democratically elected by the palestinian people.
Bush and the Israelis insisted that Hamas change their charter to acknowledge Israel’s right to exist.
They refused, and the blockade was started to weaken Hamas and force the people to reject them.
Didn’t work, so now the blockade is essentially punishment.
Israel’s position is like, umm, …. “well people of Gaza you just have to reject Hamas (who you democratically elected) and we will lift the blockade. Until then, w/e happens is your own fault.”
See? the misery of Gaza is their OWN FAULT.
— matoko_chan · Jun 4, 11:15 AM · #
and here, i’ll give you a bit of insight into al-Islam, which is opaque to most westerners.
The beating heart of al-Islam is munaasafa, justice.
The Prophet said….
A nation can survive without god, but it cannot exist without justice.
For muslims to accept Israel’s right to exist, the injustice of Israel’s creation on muslim lands as the result of anglo-saxon holocaust-guilt must be acknowledged.
Muslims didn’t make the holocaust.
So for Israel to survive in MENA, it must become a just nation.
bi la kayfah
(it is understood)
— matoko_chan · Jun 4, 11:23 AM · #
Mr. Bushman: you’ve peppered this talkback with ill fitting analogies and foolish formulations. Just one example….“you’re standing on a street corner…”. No you are actually going to a place where you are not welcome. You’ve been warned not to come but the warning party has offered to deliver your package anyway. You insist that you are coming anyway and when the police attempt to arrest you, you take away his gun and another cop shoots you. Why you felt it necessary to come is purely an opinion you hold, just like I believe than there are innocent people in prison. Do I have a right to go and break them out of jail because I belive that they are innocent?
— Bushmaster · Jun 4, 03:29 PM · #
wanted to share this with the rest of the class:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-06-04/opponents-of-the-gaza-blockade-should-also-oppose-hamas-on-gilad-shalit/
thoughts?
— max · Jun 4, 03:36 PM · #
Bushmaster,
The analogy of going to a place where they’re not welcome would be appropriate for the Israelis, who were attacking an unarmed ship in international waters.
— Travis Mason-Bushman · Jun 4, 03:51 PM · #
max, you can use textile….
“ name “ : url
take out the blanks.
what do i think?
heres my comment from the thread.
salaams Peter Beinart.
i too think Hamas should should release Sergeant Shalit.
but not for your reasons.
;)
“Do not say, that if the people do good to us, we will do good to them; and if the people oppress us, we will oppress them; but determine that if people do you good, you will do good to them; and if they oppress you, you will not oppress them”
—Muhammad ibn ‘Abdullah, the Prophet of al-Islam
but Hamas is holding Shalit to try for a prisoner exchange.
There are currently 7383 palestinians being held, some of whom are women and minor children.
so i think it is unlikely :(
— matoko_chan · Jun 4, 04:35 PM · #
I also think it’s unlikely as-is (although let’s not forget that there have been a number of close misses over the past few years concerning a prisoner exchange, so it’s far from impossible.) As a political maneuver, though, for anyone who wants to see this resolved peacefully, I think it’s pretty much solid gold. It pushes the extremists – Hamas on one end, Netanyahu’s coalition on the other – out of the middle, and it’s something that most folks actually in the middle can agree on.
— max · Jun 4, 04:58 PM · #
wallah….max makes sense.
kk, if i had the power, i’d offer the women and children prisoners to Hamas for Shalit.
makes both sides look good.
I wonder if the Israelis learned anything from the summer war….
Do you remember the Summer War?
How it started?
Hizb’ was trying to swap for Sameer Kuntar and the deal fell through, so Hizb’ grabbed 2 Israeli soljahs to sweeten the deal.
1500 lebanese civilians died, mucho infrastructure destroyed, and 2 weeks after the UN closed out hostilities, Hizb’ got Kuntar, and the Israelis got 2 bodies.
But Beinart’s proposal is a nonstarter. Hamas won’t give up Shalit for nothing.
No one trusts the Israelis anymore.
— matoko_chan · Jun 4, 06:59 PM · #
heres the sully link.
i’m sorry, max, but beinart is a total naif.
his proposal just comes off as sillie.
i can quote the Prophet until im blue in the face, but the people holding Shalit are looking malnourished hungry kids in the face everyday.
Beinart is a retard.
— matoko_chan · Jun 4, 07:20 PM · #
So what do we think about Helen Thomas’s comments on Israel after meeting in the White House last week?
Come on, people, let it all hang out. Tell us what you really think.
— The Reticulator · Jun 4, 11:04 PM · #
link?
matoko, I feel like we’re going in circles…not least because in one post you say I make sense, and then you follow up shortly asserting that I don’t. I can barely keep up.
You are correct that Hamas would not give up Shalit. But again, that’s not the point. The point for Israel supporters would be to get Israel off of defense, to help them stop just reacting to everything. The point for the protesters would be to demonstrate that they are not about being anti-Israel, but that they’re serious about achieving a solution. Shalit doesn’t need to actually be returned for these things to happen. The gesture is enough.
Curiously, tonight I saw Ami Ayalon (former head of the Navy and the Shin Bet) speak and he made the exact same proposal. And he foresaw the same outcome. Not the return of Shalit, but the ability for Israel (and all moderate people as well) to highlight Hamas’s abuses. To level the playing field a bit.
— max · Jun 4, 11:59 PM · #
to highlight Hamas’s abuses
/sigh.
you are not seeing clear.
the blockade started when Hamas refused to recognize “Israel’s right to exist”.
Everything in Gaza flows from that.
I just had a long dialogue about Zionism with a nominal Jew (altho he is a buddhist now) at TalkIslam.
It is stupid to say Israel has no right to exist. Israel exists, is existing.
What muslims mean when they say Israel has no right to exist is that Israel had no right to be created.
This is not just Hamas and ‘Nejad…..this is young educated sophisticated muslims in my cohort.
like these college students responding to Obama’s Cairo speech….
“Deeply disturbing, though, are students’ reactions to Obama’s discussion of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Three out five students who reacted to this issue rejected Obama’s attempt to be even-handed, specifically his parallel treatment of Jewish and Palestinian suffering. One of these three negative reactions was overtly antisemitic, a second implicitly so. All three reacted angrily at what they saw as an insinuation that Israel’s existence was justified by Jewish suffering in the Holocaust.”
The muslim position is that the creation of Israel was unjust, because Israel was carved out of muslim lands by europeans. That is where holocaust denialism comes from in muslims, and ‘Nejad and Hamas both play off this sense of injustice. Because muslims don’t feel holocaust-guilt.
The Zionist position, as I understand it after talking to Matt , is that Jews are owed a homeland by the whole world….because of the global treatment of Jews, not just because of the suffering the Jews endured during the holocaust.
And this is why Zionists feel that it was just for Israel to be established in MENA or at least it is their excuse. And also why Israel feels extremely threatened by any talk of the illegitimacy of the arbitrary creation of the state of Israel.
I don’t how the positions can be reconciled.
It is obvious to young educated muslims that the creation of Israel was unjust to muslims. Much like the way Iraq and other MENA countries were arbitrarily chopped up post WWII to create states of permanent unrest so the resulting weak countries could never threaten european hegemonies. That is just facts.
But maybe the arbitrary and unjust creation of Israel can argue for an arbitrary and unjust two state solution.
your daily quellism.
Face the facts. Then act on them. It’s the only mantra I know, the only doctrine I have to offer you, and it’s harder than you’d think, because I swear humans seem hardwired to do anything but. Face the facts. Don’t pray, don’t wish, don’t buy into centuries-old dogma and dead rhetoric. Don’t give in to your conditioning or your visions or your fucked-up sense of… whatever. FACE THE FACTS. THEN act.
Speech before the Assault on Millsport.
— matoko_chan · Jun 5, 10:56 AM · #
I’d say that the Zionist dream has been part of the Jewish mythos for two thousand years.
In fact you could argue that it goes back even further to the dream of restoration during Babylonian captivity:
By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept
when we remembered Zion.
There on the poplars we hung our harps,
for there our captors asked us for songs,
our tormentors demanded songs of joy;
they said,
“Sing us one of the songs of Zion!”
How can we sing the songs of the LORD
while in a foreign land?
If I forget you, O Jerusalem,
may my right hand forget its skill.
May my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth
if I do not remember you,
if I do not consider Jerusalem my highest joy
The main innovation that political Zionism introduced, from Hertzl in the 19th century onwards, was that it decided not to wait for the Messiah for final vindication. But rather to seek to reclaim Zion by politico-economic means.
— Keid A · Jun 5, 11:45 AM · #
That is why some of the suggestions of a Jewish homeland in Germany or France, would never have worked. The British even suggested Uganda.
Zionism is the political realization of a religious dream.
It could only be in Eretz Israel.
Or not at all.
— Keid A · Jun 5, 12:03 PM · #
I purposefully haven’t entered into this side of the discussion with you, matoko, because I know that you are often a reductive thinker and I don’t think you’ll understand my point of view. I don’t mean that in a pejorative way but there’s really no other word for it. I think even you would agree that your style of argument generally begins with a set of principles that you take to be obviously true (even though they are almost never taken as such by the people you’re talking with, at least here) and then proceeds to conclusions which, unsurprisingly, very few other people agree with. I can’t recall having ever seen you challenge your own fundamental assumptions, and while that’s true of a lot of people you are someone who is pushy enough in argument that it starts to matter more.
So, for the record, it’s true that I totally disagree with your assessment of the causes of and reasons for zionism. The portrait you are painting is a classic outsider-looking-in perspective, in which you deal only with the most obvious and least compelling justifications for the establishment of a Jewish state. I’m sad but certainly not surprised to hear that the cohort you run with feels the same way. And I should be clear that I don’t resent you for having this perspective, although I do wish that you would exercise a little humility when encountering a culture which it sounds like you don’t know much about.
Anyway, the reason I thought this was worth continuing was that dealing with the political situation of the moment does not require us to wade into these philosophical arguments, a point I tried to make in Noah’s last post on this topic. From my perspective, the only way out of the killing is for critical masses on both sides to agree to disagree on the politics (terrorist classifications, right to exist, etc.) and start working to end the bloodshed. No settlements, no rockets, no blockade, no kidnappings. The rest seems like wheel-spinning to me.
— max · Jun 5, 12:33 PM · #
Genetic study confirms major parts of Jewish origin story
— Keid A · Jun 5, 12:43 PM · #
“The portrait you are painting is a classic outsider-looking-in perspective”
max, you are the outsider looking in to Islam.
I am the outsider looking in to Zionism.
Matt and I built a dihliz ….you are welcome to enter.
My argument style HERE is quite simply driven by my loathing of ignorance, stupidity, partisanship and spin.
I usually start from the premise that i am right because IT IS FUCKING OBVIOUS.
TAS is (mosty) a mannered teaparty (heh) on the front lawn of a house that is fully engulfed in flames, where the attendees do every thing they can not to notice their domicile is burning to the ground behind them.
Sometimes I lose my temper.
summation
— matoko_chan · Jun 5, 01:00 PM · #
“So, for the record, it’s true that I totally disagree with your assessment of the causes of and reasons for zionism.”
i admit i don’t understand zionism.
Matt is trying to explain it to me, and an i am trying to listen.
OTOH, you guys don’t understand al-Islam.
that is what a dihliz is for, a neutral threshold space for dialogue, and hopefully a portal and a passage to mutual understanding.
enter the dihliz and explain zionism to me.
i offer you respectful attention.
;)
— matoko_chan · Jun 5, 01:11 PM · #
Not the return of Shalit, but the ability for Israel (and all moderate people as well) to highlight Hamas’s abuses.
the problem with that is what Hamas learned from the Summer War.
Do you remember the Summer War?
How it started?
Hizb’ was trying to swap for Sameer Kuntar and the deal fell through, so Hizb’ grabbed 2 Israeli soljahs to sweeten the deal.
1500 lebanese civilians died, and 2 weeks after the UN closed out hostilities, Hizb’ got Kuntar, and the Israelis got 2 bodies.
Hamas believes….from the empirical evidence of the Summer War….that they will get what they want if they wait.
The blockade situation is a net negative for Israel, like bombing leb civilians and infrastucture was.
The Gazans are held hostage to Hamas just like the Lebanese were help hostage to Hizb’.
The clever gamespace move for Israel is to swap the child and female prisoners for shalit while they can.
We will see if Israel learned anything.
:)
— matoko_chan · Jun 5, 01:23 PM · #
and yes…..there is an undertone of contempt in my tone.
i can’t help it.
the Israelis are stupid on this.
i hate stupid.
— matoko_chan · Jun 5, 05:00 PM · #
the Israelis are stupid on this. i hate stupid
They follow the logic of their belief-system, as you follow yours.
Unfortunately the agendas and narratives are incompatible.
— Keid A · Jun 5, 08:38 PM · #
Noah asks:
“Is that the way a people that is winning behaves?”
He answers:
“I don’t think so.”
He is, of course, wrong. Israel is winning big time. Its economy, even though forced by its major ally to purchase BILLIONS of dollars of weaponry from that major ally, is one of the few in the west that is actually growing. So much so, in fact, that its central bank is buying BILLIONS of American dollars to help stabilize its major allies currency.
China is set to buy BILLIONS of dollars worth of Israeli military technology but multiple American administrations from Reagan on has not allowed those sales to happen. With the problems China has with its own Muslim minorities do you really think they love the Palestinians? And the threat that the Saudis or Iran won’t sell its oil to China is laughable. Have the Saudis stopped supplying us with oil because we are the Israelis main backer?
It is next to impossible to buy an imported good that doesn’t have some percentage of its material not carried by an Israeli flagged (Zin) merchant ship. Those ships, by the way, dock in almost every major Arab port. Though not flying their national colors.
It is impossible to place a cell phone call anywhere on this planet without using either some bit of hardware, firm ware or software developed or currently maintained by an Israeli company.
Try routing a packet somewhere on the internets without using any Israeli technology. You don’t like Intel chips? Is that because there is a huge Intel research center in Israel? Same for Microsoft. On the other hand having had personal experience with an Israeli based vendor of help-desk, call center management software the only polite way to refer to it is to say it s … um … STINKS.
Two huge major natural gas fields are under development off shore of Hafia. Chances are major oil deposits are there too, ready to be exploited. Ask yourself why Norway which receives a major portion of its national income from North Sea energy resources is so anti-Israel? Do you really believe they love the Palestinians? They can’t even stand their fellow Nordic brothers in Sweden, Finland and Denmark. Swedish longshoreman are refusing to off load Israeli products as much as a protest against … well … Israeli manufacturing prowess as anything else.
The reason for the stridency from the anti-Israel side this days is because they realize THEY are losing. Hundreds of million Americans back Israel. Strangely enough a higher percentage of Christians are firm in their support of Israel than that of Jews. And worldwide hundreds of millions of pentecostal and evangelical Christians back Israel. Admittedly that is because they are threatened by the Muslims but the feeling is there none the less. Have you been watching India lately? It used to be a solid member of the third-world anti-Israel club. No longer.
India has a bit of a problem with Muslims both on its borders and internally. Which is why the worlds most populous democracy is spending hundreds of millions on Israeli weaponry and hundreds of millions more on other Israeli products.
Noah, the only correct answer to your question is that is EXACTLY how winners behave. The issue of whether it is a nice way to behave is a different question. But have you met many Israelis? Worked with many Israelis? I have. The word “nice” is not the first time that comes to mind when describing their personalities.
— anon · Jun 6, 09:00 PM · #
I think David Solway’s article on Turkey is excellent.
— Keid A · Jun 9, 09:09 AM · #
On the far left, there is similarly an understanding that a Jewish state as such was always going to be an affront, and that therefore what looks like terribly painful concessions from the Israeli side looks to the other side like grudging half-measures.
— authentic jordans · Jun 13, 02:47 AM · #