Why I Changed My Mind About Same-Sex Marriage
Back in 2003, I wrote a really long blogpost about same-sex marriage that I have since substantively repudiated. Every time I mention that I’ve changed my mind, I am asked, reasonably enough, why. So I’m going to try to answer that question.
First, let me be clear about a few things. Back in the 1990s, I favored same-sex marriage, for all the usual reasons that Andrew Sullivan could tell you. I remember being very excited in the Vice Presidential debate in 2000 when the subject came up. While neither Lieberman nor Cheney would straight-up endorse same-sex marriage, neither did they reject it, both instead giving a kind of emotional support to the idea while refusing to commit themselves on the question of what the law should say.
Then I changed my mind. Not that I changed it all that much. At the time I penned my anti-same-sex-marriage piece, I opposed “don’t ask don’t tell,” opposed the Defense of Marriage Act, needless to say opposed the Federal Marriage Amendment, favored a robust civil unions law at the state level comparable to what Vermont had at the time, and, though we’re wandering a bit afield now, favored some kind of commitment ceremony for gay couples and the ordination of openly gay rabbis within the Conservative movement of Judaism, my denomination. So I would describe my change of heart as happening within a basically gay-friendly context – or so I thought to myself, anyway.
But the emotional tone of my piece was wildly different from anything I might have written on the subject years earlier, had I been moved to do so (I started blogging in 2002).
In any event, I started changing my mind back within a year or so, at first tentatively and then more forcefully. When I look back, any explanation of the second change of heart depends on an understanding of the true reasons for the first change.
There’s no way to make this other than personal, so I’ll just say it straight out: my anxieties about gay marriage had little really to do with real, practical concerns about “the state of marriage in America” and certainly nothing to do with “fears” of “teh gays” but, rather, with very real anxieties about my own marriage and my own ability, as a flawed human being, to sustain it in the face of adversity. I looked at myself, and I told myself: I need something more than I have in me to make this work for the long term. And I found it in what I guess I’d have to call the “ideology of marriage.”
The ideology of marriage basically sets up a kind of universal template for a life narrative. If you follow these rules, you’ll be happy, content, settled – most important, you’ll be defined, you’ll have an identity that is clear and crisp and that will ground you.
But, of course, no ideology can provide that. You can’t follow a set of rules to some guarantee of happiness nor can you construct an identity by any such means. Your identity emerges from the constellation of actions you take and relationships you nurture over a lifetime. And it has an irreducible core that is substantially inborn, that was there before you knew it, that you cannot fundamentally change and that you need to get to know, one way or another.
The ideology of marriage serves as a substitute for the absorption of unconscious lessons about life and how to live it from actual, living married couples, ideally one’s parents. And so, in an age when there are so many broken marriages, it’s not surprising that an ideology of marriage would take root. There was and is a palpable hunger, in many people besides me, that the ideology aimed to satisfy.
What is the ideology of marriage? I’ve tried to tease it out of my own mind, since it’s not something that I was taught and memorized like a catechism. It’s something that was in the background of my thinking, not fully disclosed, and that I’ve only belatedly tried to put into systematic form.
In any event, here’s my best stab at it.
In the marriage ideology, marriage is about the apotheosis of the self through the subsumption of the self.
Marriage is, legally, a contract, imposing obligations on both parties. That’s what it was for almost all of human history – something about property and rights, not about love or the self. The great revolution in human affairs that began in the Renaissance was to imagine that romantic love and marriage could have something to do with one another – that one ought to marry one’s true love. (Before this, the cult of courtly love valorized adultery as the true expression of love; marriage was dictated by family and property questions, so if romantic love was to have any expression, it would only plausibly be through adultery.)
But true love . . . well, who knows what it is? Who can be sure to have found it? Who can say where it goes if it flies, whether it will return? Anyone haunted by those hobgoblins of epistemology might reasonably say: isn’t there another meaning to marriage besides the expression of love? Some kind of ideal that might be more sure, precisely because it didn’t actually depend on the identity of the other person? And to this the marriage ideology says: yes, there is.
In the marriage ideology, marrying isn’t primarily about love, or any other aspect of the relationship between two people; it’s about the creation of a third thing, different from either spouse, greater than either spouse, into which they pour themselves and are dissolved. This union finds its material expression in children, the product of a fertile marriage that cannot be torn asunder even in divorce, and who thereby give sign to the world that you and you are now parts of a larger whole, and if you break that whole it will not restore you to yourself, but merely leave the world broken.
But the self cannot be escaped so easily. The marriage ideology is not really that different from other romantic ideologies that have sought to assuage a sense of loss of self by subsuming the self in a larger, purportedly organic whole, and substituting this whole for the actual self. Nationalism does this with the nation, various religious ideologies do this with a religious group, etc. Not marriage itself, but the marriage ideology, is pernicious for the same reasons these other ideologies are.
The corollary to the above is that, in the marriage ideology, marriage is not really a choice; it’s a destiny.
Once upon a time, we did not choose our mates; they were chosen for us, by our parents, by the tribal chief, by someone in authority. Marriage had all kinds of consequences for property, for clan relations; it wasn’t something to take lightly. All the various interests that could be brought to bear were brought to bear. And we lived with the choice that was made for us. In more enlightened families and eras, we were also consulted, and not made to marry against our will. But to marry entirely to satisfy our own will – that would be unthinkable.
And then, the world changed, and we could marry who we would – indeed, we were expected to marry who we wanted to marry. We might seek advice of those wiser or more experienced than we, but we were the sovereign arbiters of our fate. And who else, really, could be?
But this meant that the burden of a mistake fell squarely on our own shoulders. If marriage were a choice, then its fatality would be too terrible to accept. Because in the marriage ideology, the failure of a marriage is the failure of a human being, in a deeply fundamental way, something that forever marks them as fallen. In the sphere of choice, if you choose wrongly, you can undo it, choose again without moral opprobrium. If deep shame is supposed to accompany the decision to choose again, then a choice cannot really be a choice. And so, marriage is not a choice. A bad marriage is not the result of a terrible choice you made that you will have to live with the rest of your life. It’s just your destiny. You’re in a bad marriage. Now learn to live with it. Much easier to do than to blame yourself. And it should be clear why, if marriage is not fundamentally a choice, talking about the right to marry might seem like something that would open the floodgates.
That’s the ideology in a nutshell, as best I can understand. And it’s all false, all an attempt to set up an artificial ideal to replace the only thing that is real, which is people, how they treat each other, care for each other, feel about each other.
And so, now, let’s turn to my original argument against gay marriage. It consisted of three parts:
1. Marriage, to be marriage, must be a social norm, not one lifestyle choice among many, and gay couples, when they marry, will not understand marriage this way.
Well, leaving aside whether the last point is true or not, not to mention whether straight couples in fact already see it that way now, this is pretty unadulterated marriage ideology, right? It’s not a choice. It’s not something you want. You have to do this. I sincerely hope my son never goes into marriage thinking that.
2. The sexes are equal, but not identical. The story we tell ourselves about marriage is a story of the complementarity of the sexes, and same-sex marriage makes it impossible to tell this story.
There’s some truth in there, but buried in it is a lie, and the lie is more important than the truth. Yes, there are statistical differences between men and women, both physiological and psychological, but (a) those differences are on average, not uniform; (b) many things we once thought were inherent differences aren’t; and © no reason is given why the law should presume upon the meaning of any differences that do exist.
But that’s not what I mean about a buried lie. The buried lie is an about how to become a man.
Let me quote from myself:
It is not obvious that men and women should live together as life partners. It is difficult. We are very different creatures; we like different things; we smell different. We try to dominate each other in ways that drive us crazy. It is far easier for a man to take his pleasure and go than to stay and build a nest; it is, in some sense, more natural. Telling him that men and women were made to live together in marriage is a way of getting him to stay by teaching him that this is part of manhood.
Now, how on earth do you communicate that in a culture that embraces the notion that marriage is the love-union of any two individuals who desire it? Love is, after all, such a feminine thing. How do you explain to an ordinary straight 14 year-old – not explain; how do you build it into his deep assumptions about the world, such that it is second-nature – that he will fully become a man not when he beds his first woman but when he weds her, if we can no longer talk about weddings in terms of men and women, but only in terms of people in love?
“[H]e will fully become a man not when he beds his first woman but when he weds her” – there it is. But the truth is: nothing can make you a man but your own recognition of yourself as such. Maybe you first felt you were a man when you finally stood up to your drunk stepfather. Maybe you first felt you were a man when you left home and began paying your own way, never turning to your family for help. Maybe you first felt you were a man when you held your infant daughter in your arms and realized that you were responsible for nurturing and protecting this little life. And sure, maybe you first felt you were a man when you stood with your wife-to-be before a duly-ordained member of the clergy. Then again, maybe you felt you were a man for years – until your wife cheated on you with your best friend, or you got laid off from the job you held for twenty years and had to live off your wife’s salary, or your son stood up to you for how you better not treat mama that way anymore or he’s big enough now to make you stop, or, for a kinder scenario, your own father died, and you broke down, realizing you still needed him, that you’d been living your life all that time just to please him and make him proud – something happened, and all of a sudden you were not a man at all, not in the only eyes that matter.
There’s no magic man-dust you can sprinkle on yourself, no path of life that will make you a man if you aren’t one. I understand the intentions of the marriage ideology in this regard. Its adherents just want to raise the psychic rewards for being good, for being true, to stand some ideal up against the myriad other false ideas of manhood that seduce young men, ideologies that can be more directly destructive. But the only effective opposition to these false ideas is good people. You can’t make men of these boys by saying: here, do this and you’ll be a man. You can only make men of them by showing them actual men, and giving them the time to learn from them, and from their own experience, how to be one.
I’ve got a son myself. I want him to grow to be a man. I hope to do my small part to teach him what that means, by example. I want him to marry when he already knows he is a man, and ready to make mature choices and assume mature responsibilities, not to marry in order to prove to himself that he’s a man.
3. Marriage is not all about love, but also – even primarily – about commitment, companionship, raising children, etc. And so, if the justification for gay marriage is that it’s wrong to say you can’t marry the person you love, that’s not good enough justification.
There are so many things wrong with this part of the argument that I don’t even want to bother pointing them all out. Let me just say this: if your spouse writes an article earnestly explaining that marriage is not fundamentally about love, please, please, pull him or her aside and have a serious chat. Sounds to me like you might need one.
The case for gay marriage is extremely . . . um, straightforward. It is the state recognizing that marriage-like arrangements already exist between gay couples; they cohabit, own property jointly, raise children together, support each other in sickness and in health, etc. Hundreds of years ago, when marriage required a clergyman and not every settlement had one, priests would come through distant villages and one of the things they’d have to do is solemnize “common law” marriages. Numerous gay couples today live in what are effectively common law marriages. The state should allow them to be solemnized and treat them no differently from straight couples who have so done. I don’t think it’s fundamentally a question of whether marriage is “good” for gay people – honestly, I think Andrew Sullivan’s “conservative” case for gay marriage partakes way too much of unprovable assertions about how the law shapes behavior. Nor do I think it’s fundamentally a question of whether same-sex marriage is “bad” for straights – honestly, if our own marital commitments really did depend on excluding gay people, that would just mean we’ve got a whole lot of work to do in our own corner of things; we can’t ask gay couples to bear our burden for us. It’s fundamentally a question of recognizing the reality of lived lives, and of treating people fairly. Nothing I wrote seven years ago rebuts that basic case.
I’m still glad I wrote it, because having done so I can reread what I wrote, learn something about myself and, I hope, what animates opposition. But I was wrong. There it is.
(As a footnote, whatever other problems I have in my life, my wife and I are still in love with one another, and still happily married. And I didn’t mean to suggest by any of the angst-ridden passages above that we aren’t. Okay, darling?)
How much evidence is there that male homosexuals want to be married (e.g., sexually monogamous) as opposed to get married (e.g., in a theatrical fashion)? They can certainly act married right now. They just can’t get married with the blessing of the state.
— Steve Sailer · Jul 16, 02:15 PM · #
No offense, but I preferred the 2003 argument about how a community turns boys into men as compared to the utterly narcissistic view you have now.
— JD · Jul 16, 02:32 PM · #
Many thanks, Noah.
— David Polansky · Jul 16, 02:52 PM · #
My experience with being married has been that it’s great. On the other hand, my experience with getting married (e.g., worrying about the color of tablecloths, registering for domestic gifts that I never wanted and couldn’t imagine using, etc.) was that it was a nightmare than any self-respecting masculine man would only put up with for love. From a self-respect standpoint, about all you could say for being a groom was that it was, legally, a guy thing, not a gay thing.
Now, the gays are trying to make getting married de jure into even more of a gay thing than it already tends to be de facto.
Those of us on the right half of the bell curve have to ask ourselves what guys on the left half of the bell curve are going to think as gays increasingly become the most theatrical participants in getting married? I predict that gay marriage means an increasing number of working class guys are going to dig in their heels about getting married.
How is this, on the whole, going to be good for society.
— Steve Sailer · Jul 16, 02:55 PM · #
Exactly Steve. Just like the Bravo channel has made working class straight guys stop watching TV.
— turnbuckle · Jul 16, 03:06 PM · #
“From a self-respect standpoint, about all you could say for being a groom was that it was, legally, a guy thing, not a gay thing”.
Could you explain what this means? I find your callousness and ignorance fascinating.
— matt · Jul 16, 03:07 PM · #
Sailor, with you 100%, buddy. (Well, make that 50%. I mean, what’s all this horseshit about marriage being great, anyway? Afraid your old lady is reading?)
Thanks for voicing our fears, man. But look, a lot of pantywaists post here, so you’re about to get rained on with beaudoup incoming for your musky truth.
You’re gonna want some reinforcements. Where’s Armenius to spoon your flank and cover your taint?
— Johnny Lunchpail · Jul 16, 03:30 PM · #
We got it: you’re gay, but you’re a conservative, so you have to keep frakking your wife to make Christian babies.
— Mmonides · Jul 16, 03:37 PM · #
My issue with what you’ve written here is that you just seem to be attaching marriage to a bunch of soft, unmeasurable qualities – but you never deal with marriage for what it is: a contract between two people that has real and material implications for their future. All this nonsense about what you think of marriage is fine – but in no way does gay marriage undermine those things for you, whereas denying gays the right to marry has real-world implications for their lives across numerous legal points. Given that gay marriage has no material effect on anything in your life, I fail to see why you should care, let alone make an decision about who should or should not get married.
— inthewoods · Jul 16, 03:48 PM · #
Gay as the day is long.
You know, some people would take this not as a challenge to remain straight in the face of your nature, but as an opportunity to finally set aside your sham marriage, get out and date the dudes you obviously pine after, and maybe create a relationship that actually satisfies you.
— GonadsAndStrife · Jul 16, 03:54 PM · #
Man, you’ve got some issues in life that are bigger than the gay marriage debate. See a good psychiatrist and sort out whether you are a man or not, whether you are straight or not, and whether you are married to the right woman (if you are straight) or not. Seeing someone’s angst laid out like this is just too painful. Remember: there are some things in life that should be kept private. Your mental anguish is one of them.
— BC · Jul 16, 03:56 PM · #
“self-respecting masculine man”
I feel a round of “I’m A Lumberjack” coming on. Who’s with me?
— sidereal · Jul 16, 03:56 PM · #
So because you personally have anxiety about your personal ability to sustain your personal marriage, you don’t want teh gays to get married. How is this an argument against gay marriage as much as an argument against all marriage?
And how is that not the most selfish, immature conceit in the world?
— Nate · Jul 16, 04:02 PM · #
I am curious if Nate and some of the others who have commented here read any of Noah’s post.
— piraeus · Jul 16, 04:11 PM · #
“I predict that gay marriage means an increasing number of working class guys are going to dig in their heels about getting married.”
Is this a joke? First, how, Steve, would we prove or disprove this prediction?
— inthewoods · Jul 16, 04:21 PM · #
I second Nate’s comment: your convoluted pontificating about the nature of marriage and society obscures the fact that you’re messing with real people’s lives, and treating it like a topic at a debating society. I’m picturing an emperor sitting on a throne while a peasant’s life hovers on your whim, to be decided between choosing what color gloves you’ll wear and what music we’ll be hearing over dessert.
Your first priority, as a civilized human being, should be what you can do to help make other people happy. If it doesn’t directly harm you, you shouldn’t try and stop them. Gay people already marry all over the world; how did that affect your marriage?
— Brian Smith · Jul 16, 04:28 PM · #
You guys do realize his entire post was in support of gay marriage?
— piraeus · Jul 16, 04:29 PM · #
Millman is assuming that our “actual” selves are what remain after the marriage and other “romantic” ideologies have been stripped away. In reality, Millman’s actual self is also an ideological fiction — a fiction of the Enlightenment.
More on this at the Innocent Smith Journal:
http://innocentsmithjournal.com/2010/07/16/noah-millmans-actual-self/
— Innocent Smith · Jul 16, 04:36 PM · #
This comment thread has so far exhibited a level of stupid rarely seen at TAS.
Noah, I do have to disagree with most of this post, mostly because I think that the “ideology of marriage” that you describe is truer than you think, and the alternative is poisonous. Marriage is and always has been a social act. Reducing manhood and marriage to private, existential acts vitiates them of social significance. How do you know you’re a man? Because you say you are. How do you know you’re married? Because you say you are.
If this really is a good description of the contemporary situation regarding marriage, it’s not a reason to expand the marriage franchise—it’s a reason to give up on it altogether. After all, nothing prevents same-sex couples from proclaiming themselves to be married now, and they often do so with gusto.
— JS Bangs · Jul 16, 05:18 PM · #
“As a footnote, whatever other problems I have in my life, my wife and I are still in love with one another, and still happily married. And I didn’t mean to suggest by any of the angst-ridden passages above that we aren’t. Okay, darling?”
Seriously? Grow a pair and just say you changed your mind given exposure to better and more defensible arguments, or hell, the old “change of heart” will do. Don’t prostrate yourself, sheepishly pedastalize your wife, and make us all wonder what the hell is the matter with you in the process.
Props on figuring out that other people getting married doesn’t effect you at all, but if that convoluted rambling mess was your best answer to those asking a simple “why?”, perhaps you should refrain from speaking about the topic at all.
@ Steve Sailor – Why don’t you just state that you’re terrified of gay marital flamboyancy leading to a decrease in the white birth rate, and get it over with?
— Patrick · Jul 16, 05:44 PM · #
Actually, that wasn’t bad. The description of marriage ideology is interesting. Has to be clarified a bit more, though. But that was meant as a description of a contemporary ideology, right?
— IM · Jul 16, 05:47 PM · #
Interesting: some comments seem to say that we should oppose gay marriage because if it’s allowed in all states, some stupid people will do stupid things.
I hate to point this out, but stupid people will do stupid things regardless of whether or not gays can marry. Stupidity is not exactly irrelevant (much of the opposition to gay marriage bears the stench of stupidity, such as the argument that if gays are allowed to marry, straights will start getting divorces and seeing their marriages fail—-as though straights don’t already get divorces and see their marriages fail, with the most spectacular rates of failure in exactly those states that most oppose gay marriage, and the least failure in the first state to allow gay marriage).
But, of course, “against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain.”
— Leisureguy · Jul 16, 05:53 PM · #
Wow, 23 comments on this? Who would have guessed.
— cw · Jul 16, 07:01 PM · #
I agree with the 2003 you…
— yarrrrr · Jul 16, 07:27 PM · #
I am glad you wrote this. I don’t agree with hardly anything you said, but nonetheless. It has always seemed to me that gay marriage should be allowed because we as people, Americans, what have you, desire fairness under the law. It also seems to me that conservatives pivot on maintaining personal freedom regardless to the “cost to society”, if there is such a thing, because the greatest cost to society is loss of freedom; from that ideological perspective, the conservative argument against gay marriage is ridiculous. But more than that, it’s an affront to people who share their lives in whatever fashion. For the straight marriage, it would be, as I think someone mentioned, completely effed to imply that the marriage of some unknown couple diminishes the quality of your marriage. And even if that were in the slightest way true, a conservative would argue that in the case of any other valuation, say, a corporation, someone who produces a different, better or more attractive product should be prevented from doing so because it might ‘devalue’ your product. If, for a conservative, free enterprise is a value on principle, not just on substance, then they’d be errant to believe differently about gay marriage. And whose marriages might also devalue mine? Multiple divorcees? Kid Rock? Certainly if they could devalue marriage, they would have devalued it quite a bit: but they don’t. And to speak of cost to society… hm, I cannot imagine how many jobs gay marriage might create. I can’t imagine the sheer benefit of increased stability to children of gay couples. I can’t imagine how much more money would be put pack into the economy if gay couples got tax breaks. Honestly, for the conservative who doesn’t like income taxes, being pro-gay marriage seems like one of the easiest ways to put more money back in the pockets of consumers. I’d challenge anyone who can do any honest math about the “cost to society” of gay marriage.
Being pro-gay marriage doesn’t mean you think gay marriage is a good idea. I think it’s a terrible idea for a great number of people. I think it’s a considerable stumbling block to a healthy relationship, I think it’s hard to sustain, and I think the desire to have that right is pinning a hope on a formality/institution/social construct/contract that it will add an element of significance, and that that weight might somehow tip the scales toward happy/healthy relationships. That’s my experience. But I can’t rule out the possibility that some gay couple out there is coming to it with the right reasons and will teach those reasons to their children and create a better future. No one has perfect knowledge of who will change the world and policies that attempt to say who can’t have access to the potential of American life are more detrimental than any bad consequence they try to prevent.
— emilee · Jul 16, 09:53 PM · #
“First, how, Steve, would we prove or disprove this prediction?”
Amidst all the junior high school quality gay jokes, we have an actual thought!
My suggestion would for America to wait a generation or two and see. Let a small country like the Netherlands test it out before the World’s Only Superpower jumps in with both feet. After all, nobody here has ever even considered the problem I raised. Whom should the burden of proof be on when the question is whether to fiddle with a fundamental building block of society? I would suggest the burden of proof should be on the fiddlers.
How about we let Holland test it for the U.S. before we make an
— Steve Sailer · Jul 16, 09:55 PM · #
wow.
bravo Noah.
know hope.
;)
— matoko_chan · Jul 16, 11:35 PM · #
As is often the case, I can think of no manner in which the arguments Noah presents here for endorsing gay marriage would not apply equally to endorsing polygamous marriages. If we are chucking out the “marriage ideology,” why not also chuck out the arbitrary limit to only two people?
— Ethan C. · Jul 17, 02:20 AM · #
Dude, don’t get high and write blog posts! NOT a good idea.
Glad you seem to have put your hateful ways aside. Can’t say I understand much of what your thinking is — and I’m pretty sure you don’t really understand your own thinking/feelings. Keep slogging, but geeze, lay-off the grass when writing!
— Jim Pharo · Jul 17, 09:56 AM · #
Noah — Your wife is lucky to have you as a husband!
As someone who admired your marriage post back when you wrote it, and asked to hear your recent thoughts, thanks for writing this.
I agree with you that there is a “marriage ideology” and that that can be as dangerous as anything else to our thoughts on this topic. Like some other commenters here, I think there is also an “individualist ideology” that has already done a lot of damage to our thoughts about marriage and which seems to be where you’ve settled since rejecting the marriage ideology.
Let me suggest a rearrangement of the ideas you have identified from your original post—social norms, being a man, and love—into a form that I think makes marriage make more sense than either ideology can provide. You’re basically right that there are plenty of experiences that can make a boy become a man. These are personal in that the story of every person’s life is unique. But finding our way to these moments and, more importantly, making the right decisions with regard to them, are not purely personal responsibilities, but are also predicated on social guidance, including social pressure and expectation.
Love, meanwhile, is epistemologically mercurial, but we know it is a matter of not just desire, but also commitment, fulfillment, and a kind of productiveness that makes it more than just what the two people do with each other. Furthermore, when it comes to society (a peaceful one, anyway), love is the fabric it is built out of. Familial love, foremost, but friendship, camaraderie, and patriotism as well. So again, society has an interest here above and beyond the individuals.
So what ought marriage to be? Instead of saying it’s how a boy becomes a man, what about saying that it’s how a man (qua man) loves a woman (qua woman)? (It applies vice versa as well, of course.)
Because society has an interest in men choosing this proper way to love a woman instead of some potentially dangerous alternative ways, it naturally and rightly exerts pressure in that direction.
As far as “becoming a man,” if the desire for that love forces a boy to become a man, then that’s one common way that can happen.
And marriage is not done FOR love. It IS love, an ongoing act of love with many parts and aspects. I think you made a very good (if easily misunderstood) point when you said marriage is not all about love. It is all about love in a sense that people don’t think about love anymore. It is not all about modern, romantic love.
There’s much more that could be said: the necessity of children to be part of the definition of marriage, the complementarity argument (which I think you gave short shrift to in this new reconsideration), et al. I won’t go so far as to say that my argument here is one for or against a kind of gay marriage. All I’ll say is that it flies in the face of most typical individualist arguments for gay marriage, including your own, I think.
— Chris Floyd · Jul 17, 12:25 PM · #
Count me as ignorant, but I see nothing wrong with granting same sex civil unions…but NOT marriage. Marriage is more than some rights granted by the State, but a joining of two persons with God in an eternal bond. And at least in the Bible I read, those two persons cannot be of the same sex.
— Janice K · Jul 17, 02:12 PM · #
The bible is wrong.
— cw · Jul 17, 02:19 PM · #
Actually, Janice, I would advise reading Luke 20:27-40, the One Bride For Seven Brothers section, where Jesus specifically repudiates this interpretation. In this chapter, a Sadducee questions Jesus about a theoretical widow who marries each of seven brothers in turn (as commanded in the Bible), and asks Jesus to which she is married when she is resurrected. Jesus replies that when people are resurrected, they are not given or taken in marriage at all. In other words, the bond of marriage is not eternal at all, but merely part of our lives here and abandoned on our death. As such, it seems sensible to not make any claims about the sort of marriages God wants us to have at all, since he’s just going to break them when we die any way.
— Bo · Jul 17, 03:22 PM · #
OK, I guess I converted around the early 2000’s from a gay marriage supporter to a very lukewarm gay marriage supporter/quasi gay marriage opponent, and it had a bit to do with observations from my own marriage and others, and a bit to do with Gavin Newsom’s foolishness in SF, and so on, so, I’ll bite.
Now, I’d been married, and my wife and I were of different faith backgrounds but felt strongly about our traditions, and we put together, as many couples have now, a complex intertraditional ceremony. We were married with, as best as I could kluge it, something like divine sanction, the approval of our families and friends, and chances to give something of ourselves to family and friends. Oh, yeah, we got some kind of damn certificate and legal thingy too, but certainly at the time, we could give a crap (yes, I know, the legal thingy matters when your partner is dying in the hospital or something like that. I’ll get there). By that time we’d been to a couple commitment ceremonies of gay friends — gay marriage was nowhere legal — and they were much the same thing and more or less I did (and do) refer to/think of those people as married: they’ve procured all those things we did as best they could and the thing happened to sort of knit their relationships up as fixed reference points in our communities and our moral lives. That seems to be 99% at least of “marriage” in any healthy, normal outlook, which I guess is my coordinate on what Noah’s calling the marriage ideology. We have lots of gay marriage. We’ve had it for a long time.
There’s a separate concept of “marriage” which has to do with something done by a religious figure. Most religious traditions extant in America do not permit gay marriage of any kind. I would like it if they reconsidered but don’t in any way wish the power to make them do so and except outside of my religious community neither have nor want a voice in whether they do so, and would oppose external attempts to make churches change their policies bitterly.
Now there’s a legal bit. The “gay marriage” debate is all about that 1% and in some ways that got my back way way up: it seemed like when you talk about having or not having “gay marriage” on the back of that civil thing, you’re massively devaluing all the gay marriages that, as I’ve said, we already have. It angers me that we — on both sides of the issue — talk as we do and I feel like it tries to take something away from my gay and married (but not legally recognized) friends. Sure: accuracy there requires some linguistic contortion. But surely we should contort?
But I worry that really people are saying what they think: that “marriage” now in most minds, actually means the legal bit not the social bit. So in that sense I’m a bit anti gay-marriage: I’d like to see people view the legal bit much less significantly and I can’t help thinking that if we all knew some basically married couples whose relationships weren’t legally recognized, we’d move to the right perspective. Of course it’s wrong to get to my ideal world on the backs of gay couples, so I wouldn’t, like, vote to make things happen that way: but I wouldn’t mind terribly if they did.
Furthermore, as for that legal basket of rights, a lot of them are as far as I can tell not rights so much as waivers of them. When you’re unconscious in the hospital I can’t come in and see you: you have a privacy right. You could waive that in advance with the right documentation (although I might have a bitch of a time, granted, getting hospital staff to recognize that you have). Or if we’re married, there’s a presumption which I can leverage (and actually, I think you could specifically deny visitation rights anyway). Many (not all, granted) of inheritance and property “rights” having to do with marriage work similarly: there’s a presumption I can have your stuff, am liable for your debts, etc. All that becomes something else I don’t really like about the raised status of the legal side of marriage (which is something I see pro-gay marriage activism as encouraging, if I haven’t made that clear). As we age we find all kinds of relationships and situations in the world and maybe cases where it would be natural to grant some of those privileges or waivers to a sibling or child or whatever, maybe sometimes in preference to a spouse (say of dubious mental state or soundness). It seems to me like we live in an age where we ought to be able to sort of pick and handle those rights a la carte and easily, and that doing so would be a good thing. So I think the move toward strengthening the idea that, nope, the state just does it all for you in one big basket when you get married and we need to extend that franchise, is a bit regressive.
I mean, OK. Gays get married all the time. The civil practice really ought to follow the social one, and it’s outrageous that it does not, so let’s fix it. But the fury seems to me to put all the onus on the civil side, where it ought not to be. It seems far more unjust to me that gays can’t serve in the military openly since that’s really 100% a civil and legal thing, and I think it is totally messed up that we might have civilly-recognized gay marriage in lots of the country while the military ban persists. News flash, people: you can in fact marry who you love. Some asshole bureaucrats you don’t know might make your paperwork a bitch though. FWIW that happens occasionally to heterosexual married couples, too (used to be for whatever reason the doctor wouldn’t let me make appointments for/get meds for our kid: one parent was given responsibility).
A separate set of thoughts, though.
Sailer and those who argue that extending the marriage franchise might, on the other hand, weaken it, may actually have a point, although I doubt it. The fact is those of us to whom it seems ridiculous aren’t really the marginal cases. But I think Sailer undermines himself twice.
Firstly he worries about whether the US should lead the way in something he sees as socially risky. But the argument has been — and gay marriage advocates have done a good job making the argument about — fundamental American values: “Freedom means freedom for everyone,” to quote someone or other. The idea that we should sit back where others surge ahead on something like that seems misguided.
But even more patently wrongheaded is the idea that somehow data from European countries is going to inform our policy choices well. Marriages and families are changing massively all over the Western world. Over the past few decades rates in single parenting or divorce or inter-cultural and inter-racial couples have changed a whole lot, community structures have changed, wealth structures have changed. But Sailer thinks I can look at data in a few countries with different social and ethnic compositions in ten years’ time maybe and make a really strong case that I can tease out a predictive effect of the legalization — not the existence — of gay marriage, and that in a context where presumably as homosexuality itself is becoming less stigmatized, you have more and more de facto (if not de jure) gay marriage. Good luck with that. And given Sailer’s general interest in data and its handling, and the obviousness of the problems of getting good data here, it is difficult to believe that he is arguing in good faith.
— what the hell, i'll bite · Jul 17, 04:30 PM · #
“Sailer and those who argue that extending the marriage franchise might, on the other hand, weaken it, may actually have a point, although I doubt it. The fact is those of us to whom it seems ridiculous aren’t really the marginal cases.”
Right. The obvious analogy is how in the early 1960s, people like N.Y. governor Nelson Rockefeller decided that FDR’s limits on Aid to Families with Dependent Children were irrational. FDR had no intention of subsidizing out of wedlock births, so he oriented AFDC toward widows, and the payouts were miserly. Rockefeller and the rest of the enlightened elites of the early 1960s, however, looked to Sweden, where generous welfare and an easy-going attitude toward having children outside marriage since the 1930s had not brought about an end to civilization. They concluded that it was just plain bigoted not to do the same here. I mean, are you saying that Americans and Swedes aren’t the same?
Unfortunately, Americans, on average, didn’t turn out to be the same as Swedes. In particular, poor blacks reacted to changes in AFDC exactly the way FDR had feared. But what did Nelson Rockefeller and the people at the Ford Foundation know about how poor blacks actually felt?
Similarly, what do readers of The American Scene know about how American guys with two digit IQs (i.e., half the men in the country) actually feel about getting married?
Now, in the case of gay marriage, I’m merely advocating that we be as prudent as Nelson Rockefeller and weight a generation or two for the evidence to come in from small countries in Northwest Europe — i.e., I’m not being very prudent at all.
But I’m being a lot more prudent than just about everybody else who explicates a position in public.
— Steve Sailer · Jul 17, 06:28 PM · #
“Firstly he worries about whether the US should lead the way in something he sees as socially risky. But the argument has been — and gay marriage advocates have done a good job making the argument about — fundamental American values: “Freedom means freedom for everyone,” to quote someone or other.”
Yes, you are quoting Dick Cheney.
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0609/Cheney_vs_Obama_but.html
How has Cheneyism — “Freedom mean freedom for everyone” — been working out for America in Iraq and Afghanistan?
“The idea that we should sit back where others surge ahead on something like that seems misguided.”
USA! USA! USA!
I’m sorry, but I’m sick and tired of seeing my fellow Americans get flattered into all sorts of stupid policies, such as Iraq and staying in Afghanistan, by appealing to their patriotic egomania. I happen to know a lot of Americans, and we’re really not so hot. We mostly just got lucky by getting this giant country to ourselves.
Let somebody else try out new policies and we’ll watch how they work out for them.
— Steve Sailer · Jul 17, 06:41 PM · #
But the argument has been — and gay marriage advocates have done a good job making the argument about — fundamental American values: “Freedom means freedom for everyone,” to quote someone or other.”
— cheap nfl jerseys · Jul 18, 08:34 AM · #
By Sailer’s arguments Truman should never have integrated the armed forces. Johnny Lunchpail would never stand for it. And we all know how much Johnny loves to think about weddings in general.
— Derek Scruggs · Jul 18, 04:11 PM · #
Sailer is fighting evo theory of culture.
That is pretty dumb, imho, for a smart guy that unnerstands ToE.
There is no culture war, theres an evolution of culture EVENT, like glaciation or the extinction event at the K-T boundary. We have homosexuals in population, and SS families, so culture evolves to include them.
The institution of marriage gets bricolaged.
Sailer is trying to build a snowfence out of pitchforks and torches to stop a glacier.
like that is going to work.
— matoko_chan · Jul 18, 04:24 PM · #
also too, I think Steve should be a lot more concerned about the emerging body of scientific research that is going to demonstrate measurable between group differences in IQ for liberals and conservatives.
Steve, do you think there will be IQ riots or will people just quietly change their voter registration to look smarter?
— matoko_chan · Jul 18, 04:28 PM · #
the emerging body of scientific research that is going to demonstrate
Matoko chan, you had been acting unusually sane for a few weeks. Are you now feeling better again?
— The Reticulator · Jul 18, 10:42 PM · #
mll,m
— coach backpack · Jul 18, 11:17 PM · #
I just think its frackin’ hilarious that Mr. between-group-differences-in-race Sailor is going to be wriggling like a worm on a hook over the conservative/liberal IQ research and the savannah principle.
its like seeing a cougar creep up on some potential prey, and then doing a backflip when it realizes the the prey is actually a skunk.
— matoko_chan · Jul 19, 01:31 AM · #
I recently came across your blog and have been reading along.
I thought I would leave my first comment. I don’t know what to say except that I have enjoyed
reading.Nice blog,I will keep visiting this blog very often.http://www.caphatshop.com
— cap hat shop · Jul 19, 07:40 AM · #
@ Sailor: “My suggestion would for America to wait a generation or two and see. Let a small country like the Netherlands test it out before the World’s Only Superpower jumps in with both feet. After all, nobody here has ever even considered the problem I raised. Whom should the burden of proof be on when the question is whether to fiddle with a fundamental building block of society? I would suggest the burden of proof should be on the fiddlers.”
Because if the people making the argument that what the “fiddlers” (aka citizens of this country) are doing is somehow affecting them, then the burden is on them. Saying that we should study it for a couple of years is flatly ridiculous – mainly because there is no obvious connection between the two ideas.
It’s like if I say we should not give out umbrellas because, given the huge number of people on the earth, it might affect the moon’s orbit. It’s a ridiculous, and moreover completely unprovable, idea to assume that gay marriage will affect straight marriage. In addition, the assumption that any societal form can be broken down to simple cause and affect is simply ludicrous. What about poverty, for example?
Of course, by your logic, you should have no problem with gays serving openly in the military – as most other countries have allowed this for years with no ill effects.
Bottom line – if you’re going to propose limiting someone else’s rights, the burden is on you to prove how it will affect your rights – and your argument doesn’t hold water.
— inthewoods · Jul 19, 09:21 AM · #
My 2 cents.
1) IMHO, nothing is going to stop gay people from becoming parents, either through adoption or raising their own kids. (IMHO, also, nothing should, but the important part for this analysis is that nothing is.)
2) Once you grant the (obvious) existance of gay parents, I think it would be a good idea for those parents to be in stable relationships. Gay marriage seems like an obvious choice.
3) Also, although it doesn’t affect me much one way or the other, if I was gay, I would be really upset about the denial of gay marriage. This alone is enough to get me to vote for gay marriage.
It’s a shame there’s no room for a compromise – say, we legalize gay marriage, but also introduce “marriage +”, which would allow divorce only for cause. (Marriage + would of course be open to gays as well, and maybe we could require some counselling to make sure that anyone entering marriage + would be reasonably well informed). Then the social liberalizers and social conservatives could each get something.
— J Mann · Jul 19, 09:59 AM · #
Chet — Re: Necessity of children. Yeah, it’s a lot more complicated than that one phrase can encompass. Let me put it differently: The purpose of a marriage is not the establishment of “couplehood,” but the establishment of a family. A family means children, but when and how those children may appear is not always in a couple’s hands, so the institution rightly should encompass those who intend to have them but end up without them.
Using marriage to establish “couplehood”—with all due respect—seems to me to be making something basically private unnecessarily public. Society has an intense interest in stable family formation because future generations are directly affected. Less so in stable adult relationship formation. Maybe Noah would call that approach part of the “marriage ideology,” but anyway, its counterargument—that marriage is or can be something a couple enters into to suit themselves—is clearly an artifact of an individualist ideology and part of the clash between modern social life and the traditional social framework(s) from which we inherited the institution of marriage.
— Chris Floyd · Jul 19, 03:18 PM · #
Then the social liberalizers and social conservatives could each get something.
J Mann
…
cultural evolution doesn’t run backwards. the SSM couples and families are already here. The form of family has already evolved to include them. You can be riddickulous and drag your feet like like Sailor, or you can work to offer a social compact that includes all the new kinds of families….single parent families, black families, brown families, SS families.
Or just go extinct.
— matoko_chan · Jul 19, 05:49 PM · #
J Mann hit the nail on the head. Whether or not you think it’s a good idea for gay people to have children, guess what? We do. You’re telling very real children that their day-to-day lives are less important than some people’s nebulous (and ridiculous) fears, that somehow straights’ marriages depend on not recognizing gays’ partnerships.
If your marriage is that precarious, the gays aren’t your problem.
I find it incredibly hard to believe that our 15-year partnership is more of a threat to the institution of marriage than was Britney Spear’s 72-hour quickie “just for for fun” Vegas wedding.
— Rachel · Jul 19, 06:10 PM · #
Man, I get really tired of watching heterosexuals intellectually masturbate about the “meaning” of marriage. You know what marriage is? It’s a civil contract that bestows a collection of rights upon a pair of individuals and, if applicable, their children. There are two classes of couples in this country: those who are afforded those rights and those who aren’t. Whether marriage is philosophically about coupling or familyhood or anything else is completely irrelevant to the debate, and Brian Smith put it best comparing this to an emporer pondering the fate of a peasant. Since heterosexuals have no stake in the matter, they love to hypothesize in the abstract about the nature of marriage; meanwhile, there are people losing everything they have because their partner died and there is no way to codify their legal relationship.
Yes, we’ll continue to have our ceremonies and that’s all well and good (and Steve Sailer and his fears of the queering of marriage would have loved to see our low-key barbeque and two-week honeymoon centered around seeing baseball games in four cities, but I digress) and you all are free to use the gays as a proxy for understanding why the hell you all decided to get married, but for those of us who don’t have the option of making the decision in the first place, real lives are being adversely effected because they do not have access to the legal mechanisms that have been put in place to protect the rights of couples.
— Illegally wed · Jul 19, 07:20 PM · #
Sailer used to be a better troll. I mean, how stupid is the idea that governmental approval is required to hold same-sex wedding ceremonies? I guess that when race isn’t involved, his heart really isn’t in it.
— Milke · Jul 19, 07:41 PM · #
That “marriage ideology” summary absolutely gave me the chills. I can’t remember the last time I heard something so smothering, crushing, and controlling outside a fundamentalist religious context. I’m glad you’ve moved beyond it, Noah.
I have never understood how the existence of MORE stable, committed, happy, secure couples is somehow threatening to existing stable, committed, happy, secure couples. It would be like saying if my neighbor had kids, that would somehow make me lose custody of my child. Huh?
I think any two consenting adults should be allowed to marry, gender irrelevant. (My issues with polygamy are mostly about fairness, but I don’t want to hijack this article topic.)
— Lauren Ipsum · Jul 19, 07:41 PM · #
@what the hell I’ll bite . So answer me this Batman: what is it about your marriage that makes sense as a legal, state recognized marriage but not mine? Because i still don’t understand your explanation of why I ought to be delighted to have a “separate but equal” civil union. Yes, most of marriage is about what it takes to make it work and grow from it. And many queer couples, like ourselves probably have something to teach the larger straight society about commitment that works apart from general social approval. But that legal bit? I can tell you its a real pain in the ass, financially costly and practically really a problem.
The answer about why marriage equality is the right thing is very much summed up in that last word. Equality. The idea we all get s=the same basic legal shake anyway. Of course in America a legal shake is often determined by your economic and social ability to put it into practice. So when the legal equality comes it’s often a reflection that we socially want to commit to equality.
It’s a lot like marriage itself. You make a commitment not because it’s easy or a guarantee of anything. But it’s what you want to do and what you believe in. And doing so publicly and in community makes it matter to you all all the more.
And we get a sense of safety and who we are by our public reflection. I am not sure Noah that you have considered the practical day-today reality of many LGBT Americans. Do you know what being ignored and lying and serving others and accepting less yourself means to people on a daily basis? Do you know what it means to the many kids who get turned out of their homes just for being who they are or beaten for it? Marriage equality is a tiny part of the whole answer. We need complete equality and protection for all Americans. And for LGBT Americans much of this is lacking in most of the country. You can be fired and refused housing for, you know, having the temerity to exist in much of the country.
In many ways Noah’s earlier thinking (and that shared by many in the comments) that somehow it’s the act of marriage /commitment to someone that makes you a man shows just how much there is for straight society to learn from the LGBT Americans it likes to debate in blog posts like this one.
— heather · Jul 19, 07:44 PM · #
I defy anyone to show me a more convoluted and self-serving way to say “I was wrong” than this.
— Patrick · Jul 19, 08:01 PM · #
Bravo illegally we’d. Could not have said it better myself. My same sex partner and me moved to Canada 5 years ago not primarily to get married but for jobs and more personal freedom, once supposedly the primary domain of USA. When we moved to Canada we were immediately granted common law marriage legal status as we had been together for 8 years at the time. So two weeks after our arrival legal same sex marriage became the law of this great land. We did not immediately take advantage and did not get married until 3 years later in California.
I had no idea what marriage and the piece of paper really meant to me or my now spouse.
There is simply no way to describe the experience to non married gays or to married heterosexuals who always had the right to marry.
So the author describes what it is or isn’t to become a man. The really important and missed conversation should explore what it is to be a human and a human that is equal to all other citizens in the county where one resides.
The bottom line here is that there is no cogent reason to bifurcate otherwise equal groups of persons into two separate and very unequal legal groups.
What every anti same sex marriage person ought to ask themselves is why it is so important to have a group of less than folks beneath you.
— Paul · Jul 19, 08:45 PM · #
If it turns out that gays are in favor of gay marriage, that would carry considerable weight in determining whether it should be legalized. We’ll see.
— The Reticulator · Jul 19, 08:46 PM · #
“Marriage is, legally, a contract, imposing obligations on both parties. That’s what it was for almost all of human history – something about property and rights, not about love or the self.”
In terms of the state’s part in this ballet, I think you could have stopped there.
Anyone is free to conceive for themselves what marriage means to them… based on values inculcated by their family, or community, or stuff they make up themselves. But a secular state ought to have no role in that part.
The state’s role is to recognize something about property and rights. The parties involved fill in the rest from their font of cultural values. If gay marriage is not accepted in your family, or your community, then being in one will bring about the same ostracism, whether it is recognized by the state or not. The limits of such ostracism in a world of recognized gay marriage are the same as in the a world of unrecognized gay marriage. Surprise! Gays will still form couples, and some people will still dislike gays, whether a gay couple can visit each other in the hospital or not.
In terms of state recognition of gay marriage, the operative question is: should the state recognize the same stuff about property and rights between two people of the same gender as it offers between two people of opposite genders? For lack of a cogent secular argument to the contrary, which I have yet to hear, I think the value of ‘equal protection under the law’ dictates that the answer is a resounding “yes”.
— Aaron · Jul 19, 08:52 PM · #
@ heather:
I don’t think you read what I wrote sensibly at all, but it may be written badly. I can think of a (procedural, not fundamental) reason I sorta kinda oppose gay civil marriage: I think that the whole civil side of marraige is overblown and cumbersome and the presence of happily normally functioning gay couples whose marriage is not civilly recognized might get us to a better and more equal place ultimately. THat’s something I’d like to see play out, but I’ll vote and act for gay civil marriage since I probably shouldn’t want things to end up well, even for tomorrow’s gays and lesbians, on the backs of today’s: not my choice to make. But as for gay “civil unions” that somehow aren’t equal to marriage, I can think of no reason whatsoever to support them, the whole idea is crapola. Those I’ll vote against. So, no, I don’t think you should be happy with a civil union: that would just make you a sucker.
— what the hell, i'll bite · Jul 19, 09:56 PM · #
Illegally Wed: “Whether marriage is philosophically about coupling or familyhood or anything else is completely irrelevant to the debate”
Laws usually exist for public policy reasons. So the debate about why family is or is not important certainly is fair game. Many behaviors in society are not allowed, even behaviors that impose few externalities on third parties. Now you can argue against these laws, and in many cases I would agree with you.
But to remove argumentation and philosophical positions, so that you can pass the laws you want is non-cognitivist and loathsome. Their are many behaviors that I think should be legal but are not. I will debate the public policy of those laws, as that is what happens in a civil society. The State is violence incarnate, and it needs to be. But laws without reasons means a capricious and arbitrary State. Certainly more abritrary than the present behemoth, which is pretty scary.
In short you are dead wrong that laws should be disconnected from public policy.
— Dan in Euroland · Jul 19, 09:58 PM · #
All these comments from straight people remind me strongly of how “enlightened” whites were urging blacks in the 1960s to slow down; they assumed that it was still the right of whites to dictate to blacks the time schedule on which they would be granted full civil equality. Good time to reread Letter from Birmingham Jail. Then go explain to my brother, who is legally married in California and has three kids, pays 86% more in federal income taxes, since he is a “head of household,” and can’t qualify his husband for a green card.
And I find it hilarious, after the health care debate, that anyone would suggest that we watch Holland for a couple of years and then decide what to do on the basis of their experience. It must have been the dismal state of health care in Germany, Switzerland, etc., that convinced opponents of similar reforms here.
— kk · Jul 19, 10:13 PM · #
Wow, Sailor. Just when I think you can’t make an argument that tops the stupidity of “Gay marriage is making marriage too gay,” you come up with “Gay marriage is just like invading Iraq!”
Please, keep ‘em coming. :)
— Toph · Jul 19, 11:51 PM · #
And I find it hilarious, after the health care debate, that anyone would suggest that we watch Holland for a couple of years and then decide what to do on the basis of their experience. It must have been the dismal state of health care in Germany, Switzerland, etc., that convinced opponents of similar reforms here.
It was the state of health care in the Netherlands and the UK that convinced a lot of people we want nothing of the sort here. And it’s appropriate, though Godwinlike, for you to have mentioned Germany when you consider the history of nationalized health care in that country, and the enabling role it played in that country’s unique experiments from Bismarck through Hitler.
— The Reticulator · Jul 20, 12:54 AM · #
Just wait Toph!
its going to be the funnest thing evah watching Sailor squirm over the biological basis of political behavior and the between group difference in IQ and g.
if I could remind you all of Heather Mac’s simply epic piece at Secular Right about how poofy marriages were going to make black unwed fathers skedaddle.
Sadly, the Secular Racists have deleted that post.
Down the memory hole!
— matoko_chan · Jul 20, 08:03 AM · #
I just want you to answer a few things Noah:
1) The crux of your statement is about the “marriage ideology.” Would you accept that there is as much ideology tied into the notion of “love” as marriage?
2) You state that gays basically have common law marriages now (give or take a few items) and that the state should simply recognize what is already happening amongst its populace. Should this style of “policy adoption” only apply to marriage?
3) You very dismissively leave out the tremendous influence of religion in marriage. For example, marriage is a holy sacrament (on par with baptism) in Catholicism; divorce is not only viewed as a sin but effectively disallows you from receiving communion again. As a Catholic, should I not hold holy my marriage moreso than that of a civily married heterosexual or homosexual couple? If I shouldn’t – that is, I should only value my marriage in secular terms – what was the point of all the mind-numbing sunday school classes for my formative years? Can I have those hours back please?
— Matt C · Jul 20, 08:08 AM · #
Matt C, epic failsauce.
should I not hold holy my marriage moreso than that of a civily married heterosexual or homosexual couple?
No.
its not your bidness.
— matoko_chan · Jul 20, 08:52 AM · #
matoko_chansauce:
the point was that Noah left out the religious point i made in his post…it was not about my own personal views….and if i did hold those personal views, i would be completely in my rights to do so, particularly because i am Catholic and that’s their position
— Matt C · Jul 20, 09:41 AM · #
“…what was the point of all the mind-numbing sunday school classes for my formative years?”
Conditioning.
— cw · Jul 20, 10:13 AM · #
@Rachel: Thanks, and best wishes for you and your family.
@Matoko: I think you are mistaken that social evolution only moves in one direction. First, you are historically incorrect. The Victorians followed the Georgians, after all, and Calvinists, Puritans, and the like were reactions to the libertinism of their day. (I don’t mean to say that social restriction is better than social liberty, just that history has seen society move in both directions in various times and places). Second, we don’t really know what progress is until we get there. I’m personally a big fan of the Jonathan Rauch theory that we need to extend some of the best conservative ideas to gay families, although the current culture war makes that difficult on both sides.
— J Mann · Jul 20, 11:21 AM · #
Jesus Christ, Sailer, have you ever even known a committed gay couple or been to a gay wedding? Pull your head out of your ass.
— Erik Vanderhoff · Jul 20, 11:28 AM · #
god! This article is a bunch of pseudo-intellectual navel gazing about something that boils down to a matter of simple equality. If I didn’t have a life I’d write a parody of this article about how I’ve intellectually wavered for years over whether or not to let Blacks sit wherever they want to on the bus and how after much tortured reflection, I’ve come to conclude that bus integration is OK by me…
— Billy · Jul 20, 11:31 AM · #
Gay marriage is now legal in ten countries and several states. It’s been around for about ten years, and yet gay marriage opponents have not been able to find ANY problems that gay have caused. Believe me, I’ve asked! The only answer I get is that it’s still too soon to determine the effects of gay marriage. The assumption always is this :: We have no idea what effects gay marriage will have on society, but we are absolutely sure that they will all be negative ones.
Which, of course, makes no sense. Neither does it allow for the possibility that gay marriage may have some positive effects on society.
Also, only a few people have pointed out that obvious — if marriage is important to people, then it’s important to PEOPLE. And gay people are people are too.
Lastly, i always ask opponents this question: If you agree that children are better off with married parents, how can you in good conscience argue that children of gay parents should continue to be denied the benefits of having married parents? Again, they never have an answer — I guess they just don’t care of children who happened to have chosen the ‘wrong’ kind of parents.
— Randy · Jul 20, 11:42 AM · #
J Mann
I think you are mistaken that social evolution only moves in one direction.
oh no im not!
ALL evolution moves in the direction of increasing complexity. what you are talking about is devolution.
Again, there is no culture war. There is an evolution of culture event, like glaciation, or the extinction event at the K-T boundary. All organs of contemporary american culture have been wholly colonized by liberalism.
FOXnews and Big Hollywood are gimp attempts to form conservative organs of culture.
— matoko_chan · Jul 20, 01:49 PM · #
oops! pre-apolos to Conor. didnt see Matt
@Matt C.
and if i did hold those personal views, i would be completely in my rights to do so
and it would not be THEIR bidness either.
;)
— matoko_chan · Jul 20, 01:53 PM · #
“what was the point of all the mind-numbing sunday school classes for my formative years?”
I think you need to read that question back to yourself really slowly and you’ll find your answer.
As for the apologia above, I appreciate your support but you’ve still got it all wrong. Insofar as a “marriage ideology” exists vis-a-vis manhood and commitment and love and yada, yada, yada, it exists for gay people, too. You seem to think straight marriage is about all these lofty things while the arguments for same-sex marriage are, well, practical. The truth is that both kinds of marriage are about lofty things and practical things and that the degree of each varies by individual case. You’re still hung up on “heterosexual ideology”, I suspect, which is why you can’t see the equality you now support, but, again, I appreciate your frankness and, mostly, your vote.
— BobN · Jul 20, 02:04 PM · #
@Steve Sailer:
Denmark has recognized same-sex unions since 1989 (two years after I was born) and the netherlands has recognized SSM since 2001..its been almost 20 years since same sex couples have had a form of state recognition from other countries. Now my quest to you: how long, in your mind, would be LONG ENOUGH for this little “experiment” of SSM to satisfy your test? how long would you define a generation? 30yrs? 50? are you going to be around long enough anyways, because if waiting depends on when YOU decide YOU’RE comfortable with it, then we should just tell every state to hold on, while we wait for you to decide.
Indeed, if you’re seriously depending your argument on “letting teh gays marry will make marriage too gay” what exactly are you implying? that men, will just not want to get married cause they’re just not apt at dealing with the details of a ceremony?
really?
men just aren’t strong enough to handle tablecloths and centerpieces? does EVERY couple even have a ceremony?
and again, never have I heard that marriage=monogamy. there are PLENTY of happily married, both straight and gay couples who do not practice monogamy. marriage is a legal contract issued by the state for two consenting adults. the state doesn’t do random checks to see if the couple are monogamous nor do they even have some kind of sexual ability test. sex has nothing to do with marriage
you seem to be making the biggest junior high school jokes (or in your mind, “arguments”)…
— Manny · Jul 20, 02:27 PM · #
@Matoko, I still think you’re mistaken. Biologically, the idea of “devolution” has been rejected – you could argue that evolution tends to trend towards fitness for a given niche, but as the environment changes, even that target may change.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devolution_(biological_fallacy)
Socially, it just begs the question. Whether you call gay marriage socia “evolution” or “devolution” doesn’t mean much if you grant that the trend can move either way.
— J Mann · Jul 20, 03:21 PM · #
J Mann, I SAID evolution trends towards complexity.
Obviously SSM is an instance of increasing complexity in the domain of marriage.
devolution is a BIOLOGICAL fallacy.
We are talking evo theory of culture here.
that is NOT genetic evolution, it is memetic evolution.
Consider the Second Law. An artificial low-entrophy memetic system can be imposed by laws….sin laws, vickies like in diamond age. devolution in that it goes backwards in terms of memetic evolution.
The reason this doesn’t work in biology is that there is no way of uniformly returning matter(ie gene expression) to a lower-entrophy state.
that we know of.
:)
— matoko_chan · Jul 20, 04:21 PM · #
I’m reading so many comments about what marriage means, what it is about, the “minimum required” (is it love, commitment, children…?) and so on, and it’s of course clear that marriage, like friendship, must have two meanings: a societal one, and a personal one. The latter is far more complex than most commenters here have revealed – to say that the meaning of a marriage is unique to the two parties in that marriage is only the tip of the tip of the iceberg. That’s another post. But what we’re really talking about here is the societal definition of marriage. I think it’s instructive to consider this in the context of another (less legally relevant) relationship, that of friendship.
What does it mean to be friends with someone? If we felt the need to legally define this, we’d have much the same trouble (and strife) as the above comments demonstrate, because friendship takes on so many forms, has so many aspects, etc. Yet we all feel in our gut that we know what it is, and what it isn’t.
From what I’m reading above, marriage seems to be whatever the beholder wants it to be, which worries me, as that means it is essentially meaningless.
I’d like to know what marriage ISN’T. I’m a man, and I have a best friend I have known and respected for almost two decades. He and I love each other, but not romantically. I trust him, and would trust him with my life. I am committed to being his friend for the rest of my life, and he is similarly committed. Are we (common law) married? How is this relationship different than a marriage?
We do not cohabitate, but i think we all agree that’s not required to define marriage, though it’s desirable.
We cannot have children together, but we could conceivably adopt. If laws prevented that, we could cohabitate (or not) and raise a child (a hypothetical son he has from a previous liason) together. One could argue that we would do a much better job than many legally married parents do.
We do not, and never will, engage in a sexual acts (though we do hug on rare occasion when moved to do so). But many married couples do not, or even cannot, engage in sex. Some never have.
I think of him as family, often referring to him as a brother, though we are not related. He feels more like family to me than most of my uncles, to be sure, even than my real brother.
But I think it’s clear to everyone that we are not married. Not legally, not spiritually, not romantically. But why not? We can pass most of the “tests” proposed in above posts.
If, today, we decided to declare, “we are married,” would we be?
We happen to both be straight, and in fact married to women. Our respective marriages have in some ways stressed our committed friendship, but in more ways that that, our marriages enriched our friendship. Our wives are friends, we are friends with each others’ wives. If the bonds described in the last sentence grow to equal what my friend and I already had for years before meeting our respective wives, will we then be a polygamous marriage? Of course not. But why “of course” not? What WILL we be, and how will that be different from marriage?
Whether the original author has it partially or even totally wrong, if you check your gut against my post up to this point, I think you’ll have to agree there does exist some sort of “marriage ideology,” or what I would prefer to call, “essence of marriage.” If not, then it is a truly meaningless term, and the only legal fight should be about removing the term “marriage” from law entirely, replacing it with “registered semi-permanent union”, and we could move on. But there’s a reason gay marriage activists don’t hold that up as the goal. Because we all know this isn’t just a legal debate – the law portion is merely adding an aspect (sometimes painful, sometimes confounding) to the discussion that gives us a forum in which to fight, and around which to argue.
There are many people, such as myself, who are giving this a great deal of thought. We want peace. We want to support love. We support gay relationships and love. We support marriage, but we recognize it has a required social meaning, and we are concerned that a legal fight for gay marriage is so emotionally charged that it’s preventing us from understanding what marriage is, and isn’t. Perhaps it does and should include the union of two men or two women, perhaps not. But right now, it seems to mean nothing, and that void of meaning is the most important fight. I believe that we need to fight together to find that meaning, from a place of love and honesty, somehow disconnecting it from notions of rights (for what value is a right if it has no meaning?). Only then can we address the rights question from a place that we can embrace with unity.
— David for love · Jul 20, 04:43 PM · #
I think it’s arbitrary to say whether same-sex marriage increases or decreases the complexity of marriage (or society).
I mean, if I amend contract law to say that contracts between redheads and persons under 17 are void unless made on Tuesday, that makes contracts more complex, no?
Similarly, the introduction of no-fault divorce simplified rather than increased complexity.
At any rate, if you grant that the pendulum moves in both directions, then stating that “increasing complexity” is evolution, but “decreasing complexity” is develolution is at best semantic.
It’s like I do a spirograph drawing and announce that when the pen moves up the page, it’s evolution, but when the page moves down the page, it’s devolution. Fine, I can say that, but it doesn’t help to predict where the pen is going to go.
— J Mann · Jul 20, 04:44 PM · #
“no-fault divorce simplified rather than increased complexity.”
no! it made a new kind of divorce….more complexity, more laws, IPOF more divorce.
here, read chapter 3 in this book and then we can talk.
<3
— matoko_chan · Jul 20, 08:58 PM · #
But it got rid of an old kind of divorce. Nothing in Genes, Culture, and Evolution supports the idea that increasing complexity is inevitable, or that gay marriage is more “complex” than, say, a two-tiered system in which straights can marry, form a civil union, or cohabitate in all 50 states, but gays can marry in a few states, form a civil union in most states, and cohabitate in all.
— J Mann · Jul 21, 10:16 AM · #
Chet says: “it was lies told about the state of health care in those countries that convinced a lot of people not to make any kind of reform to the American system, despite the fact that citizens under those supposedly dysfunctional systems vastly prefer them to ours.”
I would add one small correction to his last phrase: “despite the fact that citizens under those supposedly dysfunctional systems vastly prefer them to [the lies told about] ours.”
— OHM · Jul 21, 10:17 AM · #
umm J Mann you are reading the wrong book…..i was reading from Cultural Transmission and Evolution: a Quantitative Approach. Oh well, perhaps the maths are beyond you. :)
and no, we are talking about the evolution of the social structure marriage and the increase in kinds of families and the increase in kinds of marriages.
a civil union is not a kind of marriage.
— matoko_chan · Jul 21, 10:44 AM · #
J Mann, do you know the First Law of Evolutionary Theory of Culture?
Societies are not shaped by culture as much as societies shape culture according to their needs.
We need marriage for SS couples and SS families.
so marriage evolves.
— matoko_chan · Jul 21, 10:50 AM · #
Sorry, I did read the right chapter, and yes, the math is beyond me, but I can see that the math does not say that no fault divorce or gay marriage are inevitable.
A simple observation of history is enough — societies have moved towards and away from tolerance of gay relationships. The models you refer to can explain some of the process, but they can’t tell you what the direction is, nor do they conclude that the movement is universally towards complexity, nor do they tell you that universal gay marriage is more complex than the the hodgepodge of laws we currently have.
— J Mann · Jul 21, 11:39 AM · #
Chet, In fact, I did not, in fact, find that the average politically-aware citizen of Europe knows far more about health care in America than the average American knows about healthcare in any given European country. The reason for this is that there’s so much “ra-ra-our system is better than theirs” on both sides of the Atlantic (and within Europe, too) that it hopelessly obscures the delicate balance of values, prioritization, and resource scarcities embedded in any particular system.
I’m shocked by the naivety of your question. People tend to lie about how things are “over there” (it’s heaven; no it’s hell!) for partisan advantage, of course.
So, correction re-submitted.
— OHM · Jul 21, 05:18 PM · #
“Once upon a time, we did not choose our mates; they were chosen for us, by our parents, by the tribal chief, by someone in authority. Marriage had all kinds of consequences for property, for clan relations;”
Actually, for most of human history we were foragers. Marriage had nothing to do with property and was freely chosen and in part natural, found in all foraging societies. It was only with the rise of agriculture that marriage became arranged by parents for political and financial purposes.
— eduardom · Jul 21, 11:35 PM · #
How can you measure entropy in social relationships?
— J Mann · Jul 22, 10:03 AM · #
Home medical equipment is a category of devices which is used for patients whose care is being managed from a home or other private facility managed by a nonprofessional caregiver or family member.
— home medical equipment suppliers · Jul 27, 03:18 AM · #