Re: Innovation Is the Only Answer
Unsurprisingly, Noah Millman has produced a long, thoughtful and insightful post on how to address climate change. I agree with a lot of it, but not all of it.
Noah (if I may) characterizes my argument correctly, with one important exception. He says that:
The proposed alternative is to encourage innovation to eventually make the fossil fuel economy obsolete. Jim Manzi specifically thinks the government should be spending a few billion dollars a year on such efforts – a drop in the bucket relative to the costs of climate change legislation.
In fact, I have very specifically argued against using government-directed investment for this purpose:
One obvious approach is to have the government fund technology research directly. The danger here, of course, is that we end up back in the failed game of industrial policy. Such dangers are not merely theoretical. The federal government was the key sponsor of, for example, the shale oil and large-scale wind turbine debacles in response to the energy crisis thirty years ago. Setting the right scope for such a program and managing the funding process carefully would each be essential to prevent it from becoming corporate welfare.
We should limit government investments to those topics that meet specific criteria. They should be related to detecting or ameliorating the effects of global warming, should serve a public rather than a private need, and should provide no obvious potential source of profit to investors if successful. Important examples include improved global climate prediction capability, visionary biotechnology to capture and recycle carbon dioxide emissions, or geo-engineering projects to change the albedo of the earth’s surface or atmosphere. On the other hand, most technologies that would contribute to the ongoing long-run transition of the economy away from fossil fuels, like more efficient fuel cells for autos or lower-cost solar power sources, need no government funding, since there is ample profit motive to develop them. As evidence, massive amounts of venture funding and large-company internal capital allocations are flowing to these opportunities right now. Government attempts to direct such development would almost certainly destroy value through political allocation of resources.
In the terms of Noah’s post, I am basically arguing for government-led technical innovation only on what he calls “the other side of the carbon ledger” (roughly speaking, geo-engineering). I think this difference turns out to be material to the broader argument, as Noah then goes on to say:
So I would argue that there are two key points of agreement between the opposing camps. First, that climate change is a real and potentially very serious threat. Second, that significant technological innovation is an absolutely necessary component to addressing that threat.
Which leaves as the proper question to debate: what is the most effective way to get that innovation, “effective” being defined as some function combining “shortest time” and “lowest economic cost” (the precise function being left open as a side debate).
Check on the first asserted point of agreement, but not on the second – at least not exactly. My position is that a comparatively narrow kind of technical innovation is the proper role for the government, but not the kind of broader management of the energy sector of the economy that is what I think Noah means by those words.
So, if he and I agree that government-led innovation is useful for geo-engineering, and we further agree that government led technology innovation is not an effective method for pushing the broader economy to adopt less carbon-intensive energy sources, then I think we’re back to the debate about whether or not pricing carbon is a good idea as a means to accomplish this second goal.
I don’t think so. Even if we assume away the gigantic problems of international coordination and the real-world costs that would be imposed by any conceivable US political deal that did this, no realistic US price on carbon is likely to induce the kind of transformation that many advocates rhetorically imagine, whether through a few big breakthroughs or through many incremental steps.
Consider as an important example that most major Western European countries have had very high gas taxes – typically several dollars per gallon – for decades. But despite the efforts of lots of very smart engineers, the automobile has been a pretty stable technology for these same decades. Raising the price of gas does reduce consumption, and will of course induce some incremental innovation. But Western Europe seems to me to a big enough market so that if a low-carbon technology could be developed globally that was competitive with internal combustion in the face of a ~$5 per gallon gas tax, we already have a big enough end-use market to induce it. Why would increasing prices in America work when it hasn’t for Europe? There might be some carbon price that would radically accelerate innovation across the array of uses of fossil fuels (the limit case is simply outlawing coal and petroleum), but it has never, to my knowledge, been imposed anywhere at scale, presumably because it would impoverish any country that tried.
I do agree that a debate about the proper role of government in encouraging technical innovation around the broader goal of accelerating the ongoing de-carbonization of advanced economies is a potentially productive discussion. This is mostly because it is more likely than the current academic economists’ debate about “pricing carbon” to get focused on practical and useful questions. I’m generally opposed to industrial policy for what I consider to be very well-founded reasons, but such abstractions are only the starting point for analyzing specific proposals. The history of technological-economic innovation in America is a complicated story that involves markets, but also government interventions form canals and railroads to WWII, Apollo and the War on Cancer. Though I haven’t seen a persuasive proposal for such an intervention in this case, I remain in principle open to the concept, and believe that credible ideas merit targeted scrutiny.
I need some clarification.
Are you suggesting that technological innovation in the area of alternative fuel is less likely to happen with cap and trade compared to other solutions?
If not, then I’m at a lost to any opposition to cap and trade. If so, I’d like to hear some of those solutions.
— Console · Jul 29, 03:36 PM · #
“There might be some carbon price that would radically accelerate innovation across the array of uses of fossil fuels (the limit case is simply outlawing coal and petroleum), but it has never, to my knowledge, been imposed anywhere at scale, presumably because it would impoverish any country that tried.”
It has with electricity… the best example is renewable FITs in Germany and Europe. Consumers pay slightly higher prices for energy to encourage the growth of renewable technologies and reduce the use of carbon-based energy. Now those taxes (incentives) are being steadily reduced as renewable industries approach grid parity.
— Walker Frost · Jul 29, 08:08 PM · #
Europe’s high gas taxes may not have produced the technological wonder that made a carbon economy obsolete, but they have led to a more stable and sustainable use of energy. Cars are still there, but they are generally smaller, more efficient and used less often due to a better public transportation system.
Finally, although Europe’s market is large, and perhaps should be large enough to support alternatives, the fact remains that the U.S. market and demand for gas is simply immense. A shift in the U.S. consumption patterns would be a game changer.
And on top of that, at least some European countries are making progress toward more extensive use of renewable energy.
— Joshua · Jul 30, 10:24 AM · #
You seem to be assuming that European automobiles and American automobiles are fungible. They are very different beasts, with very different characteristics with respect to fuel consumption, weight, etc.
— Richard Willey · Jul 30, 10:40 AM · #
“Raising the price of gas does reduce consumption, and will of course induce some incremental innovation.”
I think the one big thing you don’t mention is the huge difference in efficiency (mpg) between cars in America and in Europe and Japan. Currently, the American fleet averages around 21 mpg while Japan cars average 31 mpg and European cars get an amazing 41 mpg! Raising taxes gets people to lower their consumption in the long run, which is good for the environment and national security.
— Tom W · Jul 30, 10:45 AM · #
I don’t think you can look at Europe the way you do and properly conclude that taxes cannot spur significant innovation. First of all, taxes there HAVE spurred significant innovation. The Smart Car, for example. The high price of gas there is also partly responsible for major behavioral differences between Europe and the US when it comes to personal transportation, as seen in miles driven, average MPG, car ownership, and public transportation investment and usage. The high price of gas probably also provides a partial explanation for Europeans’ much lower propensity toward suburban living compared to what we see in the US.
True, Europe has not given us cars that run on household waste or miniature nuclear reactors, but if you applied a tax in the US that created about the same dead-weight loss (i.e. total cost to consumers) as do the taxes in Europe, you would be doubling the potential payoff of low-carbon technology. You don’t think that would have an effect on technological innovation? I do.
It wouldn’t solve the problem of AGW but it seems a sensible step in the right direction. Don’t we need to do SOMETHING to make the price of carbon reflect the enormous negative externalities associated with it? Is that really too much to ask of American consumers? Think of what we spend to protect the world’s access to oil from the middle-east. Think of the environmental damage from oil spills. Air pollution. AGW. All those costs should be completely ignored in pricing gasoline? It makes no sense.
— Andrew · Jul 30, 10:49 AM · #
I assume that one of the biggest reasons a high gas tax has not engendered much innovation is due to the facts below:
Europe has long invested in public transportation, so the role a motor vehicle plays in European life is significantly different than the role the car plays here. If we had a significant tax per gallon in the US, people would buy more fuel efficient cars, drive more judiciously, rely more on public transportation, which would receive significantly more attention and funding with higher usage; we would use less fossil fuel, help reduce the rate of global warming, and become less reliant on a resource that is held by countries who hold is in contempt.
— roger oyster · Jul 30, 11:10 AM · #
I have to agree with most commenters that the European experience with high energy prices shows exactly the opposite of the argument you make. It really has spurred more efficient cars and a robust alternative energy sector. An example: I put a solar hot water system on my house in Maryland a few years ago. It was made in Germany, which is a giant in the solar field. Why? Because there is a much more robust market for such products in Europe due to their higher cost of dirty energy. I wish I could have bough American, but we are waaaay behind, since we have such artificially low energy costs here.
— John Irvine · Jul 30, 11:10 AM · #
A gas tax big enough to metamorphose America into Europe is a gas tax no party will pass.
— KVS · Jul 30, 12:00 PM · #
I think this post illustrates why Jim Manzi should not be viewed as a reliable source when it comes to climate change arguments.
— Michael · Jul 30, 12:29 PM · #
Leaving aside the argument over whether carbon pricing will create incentives for innovation, there is another angle: i.e. that a relatively low (i.e. politically feasible) unilateral carbon tax would at least generate meaningful resources to fund public spending on innovation.
— nb · Jul 30, 12:36 PM · #
Then what makes you think that a fuel/carbon tax in the US wouldn’t have similar effects here, rather than stimulating a massive investment in new technology? The evidence simply doesn’t support the claim that any politically-feasible tax increase on oil or gasoline in the US would have a large effect on investment in new technology.
— Joey L · Jul 30, 02:04 PM · #
The issue here is the claim that higher fuel taxes would spur technological development. The European experience expressly contradicts that claim. Europeans have adapted to higher fuel costs mostly by making their cars smaller and less powerful, not by making huge investments in alternative fuels or other advanced auto technology.
— Joey L · Jul 30, 02:17 PM · #
Joey L:
They are not just smaller and less powerful, they also emit far less CO2. You may not consider this to be “advanced auto technology” but it does address climate change pretty directly. Here in the US, with our lower fuel costs, we emit TWICE as much CO2 per mile driven. That’s not a coincidence.
— John Irvine · Jul 30, 03:41 PM · #
You have completely missed the point. European cars emit less CO2 mostly BECAUSE they are smaller and less poweful. The European car market has adapted to higher fuel costs by making vehicles that are smaller and weaker, not by pursuing advanced technology. So there is little reason to think that raising fuel prices in the US would do much to stimulate advanced technology here either.
— Joey L · Jul 30, 05:13 PM · #
Cars are the overwhelmingly dominant mode of transportation on both continents. They’re just a bit more overwhelmingly dominant in the US than in Europe. But Europe is catching up with the US. The motorization rate (number of cars per capita) is growing faster in Europe than in the US. Europe’s motorway network is also growing faster than the US interstate/freeway network. Meanwhile, Europe’s rail network is shrinking, despite all the spending on high-speed rail. The fastest-growing mode of transportation in Europe is air travel. The explosion of low-cost carriers in Europe such as Easyjet and Ryanair has stimulated huge growth in international travel within Europe.
— Joey L · Jul 30, 05:44 PM · #
None of you people post your sources! For instance, Joey L’s long list of magically invented “statistics” immediately above are useless without a citation, and also aren’t convincing given that “motorization” doesn’t matter nearly as much as “vehicle miles traveled.”
Anyway, it contradicts roger oysters’s equally meaningless random factoids on annual per capita fuel consumption in the US vs Europe, which even if true would be misleading because “Europe” is such a socio-economicallly varied space— are you including Latvia as well as Liechtenstein?
I tend to be more sympathetic to roger’s POV but the point is, I can make up facts too. The number of air-pollution-related deaths in US cities is 7.3 times higher than in European cities.
More seriously, Joey L: you are taking a very narrow definition of “advanced technology” and then you are doing it over and over. Maybe “advanced technology” means increasing motorization and optimizing rail and air travel networks while reducing aggregate fuel use.
— Brandon K · Jul 30, 07:12 PM · #
There’s nothing “magical” or “invented” about it, Brandon K. The information is published by Eurostat, the EU statistics agency, in its Panorama of Transport. Here’s the latest version:
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_OFFPUB/KS-DA-09-001/EN/KS-DA-09-001-EN.PDF
Motorization rate is hugely important. If you don’t have a car, or don’t have ready access to a car, you are almost entirely dependent on public transportation. Once you own a car, you are likely to use it for most of your travel. The marginal cost of driving is small.
As for VMT, average VMT for Europeans is likely to remain smaller than average VMT for Americans. But that’s mainly because Europe is so much smaller and more densely populated than the US, not because of differences in policy choices. If Europeans had as much land as we do, their trips would tend to be much longer.
— Joey L · Jul 30, 07:25 PM · #
Jim Manzi wrote, “Raising the price of gas does reduce consumption, and will of course induce some incremental innovation. But…”
The point of taxing carbon is not just to spur innovation, but to reduce consumption — That is a worthy end in itself, don’t you agree?
So rather than try to count angels on the head of pin in your opposition to government doing something to mitigate carbon emissions, why not accept the uncertainty of future innovation on behalf of the very important goal of reducing CO2 emissions?
Perhaps I am mistaking “weather” for “climate” here, but from my perspective in the U.S., things are changing and not in a good way! Storms are growing stronger and more frequent, precipitation is out of control, and the heat this summer is unlike anything I’ve ever seen in my life. And we all know that cities all over Europe are baking in this heat. Meanwhile, in South America, there have been exceptionally strong winter storms….. You know the picture.
Jim Manzi must have an awfully phlegmatic disposition in the face of what I see to be happening, which is a rapidly evolving global climate whose cause is undeniably our activity. Models of this evolution do not on the whole look good. That to me is a crisis.
I suggest that our government, as well as ourselves, act quickly and forcefully to mitigate carbon emissions. As Bob Weir said, “The future’s here, we are it, and we are on our own.”
— Bradley Cooke · Jul 31, 12:12 AM · #
Perhaps I am mistaking “weather” for “climate” here, but from my perspective in the U.S.
Yes, you are mistaken. You’re acting like those denialists who say, “Look how much it snowed this month. It must be that global warming ha ha ha.”
— The Reticulator · Jul 31, 01:05 AM · #
“ * 59 gallons: Average volume of motor vehicle gasoline used, per person per year, in Europe. * 428 gallons: Motor vehicle gasoline used, per person per year, in the United States.”
So, why are we letting all these people immigrate to the United States, where they’ll emit vastly more carbon than if they stayed home or moved somewhere else? The Census Bureau forecasts a population increase in America of 129 million over the next 40 years, basically all of that increase due to past, present, and future immigration.
— Steve Sailer · Jul 31, 01:07 AM · #
a rapidly evolving global climate whose cause is undeniably our activity
That is possibly the most extreme statement ever heard from the warmist side of the AGW debates.
— The Reticulator · Jul 31, 01:08 AM · #
So, why are we letting all these people immigrate to the United States, where they’ll emit vastly more carbon than if they stayed home or moved somewhere else?
If they stay home or move somewhere else they’ll soon be emitting just as much as if they stayed in the U.S. There are good reasons to prohibit illegal immigration. There may even be good reasons to limit legal immigration. But given that the rest of the world is catching up with the 1st world countries in consumption habits, prohibiting or stopping immigration on these grounds would be an unserious activity.
— The Reticulator · Jul 31, 01:18 AM · #
Joey L’s long list of magically invented “statistics” immediately above are useless without a citation
No, such things are not useless without a citation. They’re not as convincing without one, but they can be useful if they provoke a person to look things up or ask questions. It would be more accurate to say they are less useful than to say they are useless.
— The Reticulator · Jul 31, 01:25 AM · #
KVS wrote: “A gas tax big enough to metamorphose America into Europe is a gas tax no party will pass.”
Too late. America is already like Europe. In Europe people crave the security of a welfare-police state. In the U.S. people crave the security of steel-armored cocoons on the highway. Same character traits either way.
— The Reticulator · Jul 31, 01:31 AM · #
“If they stay home or move somewhere else they’ll soon be emitting just as much as if they stayed in the U.S.”
What evidence is there for that?
Mexico subsidizes gasoline prices and takes after American ways, yet Mexico, which has 35% of the population of the U.S. uses about 8-9% as many barrels of oil per year. Mexico uses only about 4.8% as much electricity as the U.S.
Guatemala has 4.5% of the population of the U.S. and uses about 0.4% as much oil. And it consumes about 0.4% as much electricity.
The CIA World Factbook has all the numbers.
— Steve Sailer · Jul 31, 02:42 AM · #
What evidence is there for that?
I guess I’m basing this on a talk that I heard Dave Tilman give last year. (Tilman is a good guy – doesn’t carry a lot of political baggage. I’ve heard people call him conservative, but that doesn’t mean he’s conservative like me — just not a whack job like a lot of his fellow academics.) As part of his talk he presented some 50-year forecasts for per-capita protein consumption of 3rd world countries. I don’t recall what those forecasts were based on, and in any case he didn’t go into a lot of detail about that part. He was talking more about possibilities of where that additional protein could come from. I’m not sure which of all this has already been published and which has yet to be published. A quick google didn’t find it for me. But he did point out the historical record of what has happened elsewhere when people become more affluent. They want to consume and eat meat like we do. They also want to burn fossil fuels like we do. You yourself point out that immigrants to the U.S. would spew more carbon here than back at home. First chance they get, they’ll do it back at home if they can’t do it here. One way or another, we’ll have to share the world’s resources more equitably with them, whether they’re within our borders or without.
The rate of change might be a little different one way compared with another. Big deal unless you have the John Maynard Keynes outlook on what happens in the long run.
— The Reticulator · Jul 31, 04:26 AM · #
“…I’ve heard people call him conservative, but that doesn’t mean he’s conservative like me….”
…One way or another, we’ll have to share the world’s resources more equitably with them, whether they’re within our borders or without.”
“Conservative—->Share?” Those two statements coming from the same mouth does not compute.
— cw · Jul 31, 01:15 PM · #
I can’t speak for Manzi, but I certainly do not agree. Why should reducing consumption — of oil or anything else — be considered a worthy end in itself?
— Jerry · Jul 31, 01:40 PM · #
“50-year forecasts for per-capita protein consumption of 3rd world countries.”
There’s a big difference between increasing protein consumption and living large American-style with an airconditioned McMansion in the exurbs and a long commute to work in a 250 horsepower pick-up truck.
— Steve Sailer · Jul 31, 03:13 PM · #
Sailor, sometimes getting serious means thinking twisted, so consider this:
One way to drive deserving white Americans out of their big crappy McMansions/Yukon Extendeds and back to carbon-thrifty city life is for enough undocumented, undeserving Guatemalans to penetrate their exurbs. Goodbye crabgrass, hello cilantro.
— Chimichanga Gil · Jul 31, 03:49 PM · #
Chimi, white Americans and Guatemalan Americans will live happily together in the exurbs. You and your fellow enviro-loonies can keep your crappy high-rise shoeboxes in the city. As you struggle to walk home to your shoebox in the freezing cold, with the bags of groceries you bought at the small corner market with the high prices and small selection, we’ll wave to you from our fast, comfortable Yukon as we drive to Costco.
— Apple Pie Fred · Jul 31, 03:59 PM · #
“One way to drive deserving white Americans out of their big crappy McMansions/Yukon Extendeds and back to carbon-thrifty city life is for enough undocumented, undeserving Guatemalans to penetrate their exurbs.”
And then they just move to hyperburbs even farther out.
Of course, the reality of the exurban housing bubble/bust in California was that it was largely minorities moving to the exurbs and the defaulting. I now have the default statistics for California by race and they are astonishing.
— Steve Sailer · Jul 31, 04:00 PM · #
Fred, your Yukon is fast? Talk about innovations.
Regarding Costco, a five lb brick of Colby cheese versus a five lb brick of Monterey Jack is not exactly an inspiring choice, no matter the deep bargains. But at least you’d wave. Do so carefully, however, lest you wind yourself.
— Chimichanga Gil · Jul 31, 05:08 PM · #
Yes, chimi, my Yukon is a lot faster than your feet. And it can take me to specialty stores as well as Costco, in case I want some exotic cheese. Have fun hauling your high-priced groceries back to your fifth-floor walk-up shoebox in the pouring rain.
— Apple Pie Fred · Jul 31, 05:26 PM · #
SS, thanks for walking me through your position. Now I get how it’s tied to cap and trade.
— Chimichanga Gil · Jul 31, 05:30 PM · #
APF, you were smart to get your Yukon in black. It disguises your hips.
— Chimichanga Gil · Jul 31, 05:43 PM · #
Thanks to all the gyms and fitness centers I can reach quickly in my fast, comfortable Yukon while you’re dragging your groceries home and waiting around for buses, my hips are fine. I hope your bad knee and swollen ankles aren’t too bad this week.
— Apple Pie Fred · Jul 31, 06:43 PM · #
Jerry wrote, “I can’t speak for Manzi, but I certainly do not agree. Why should reducing consumption — of oil or anything else — be considered a worthy end in itself?”
I am not opposed to reducing consumption per se as an end in itself. The point of a carbon tax is to reduce the consumption and combustion of fossil fuels, and promote migration to alternative sources of energy because climate models predict—as outside chances, but chances nonetheless—of catastrophic changes due to global warming, namely rapid warming via positive feedback.
— Bradley Cooke · Jul 31, 08:36 PM · #
Huh? You wrote that you think reducing consumption (of fossil fuels) is a worthy end in itself. Are you now retracting that claim? If not, why do you think reducing consumption is a worthy end in itself?
If you want to reduce oil consumption because you think that would reduce the risk of catastrophe, you’re not advocating reducing consumption “as a worthy end in itself” but rather as a means to a different end – namely, reducing the risk of catastrophe. The distinction isn’t a quibble. I think confusion between the two is the cause of much climate change alarmism.
— Jerry · Jul 31, 09:58 PM · #
Manzi has addressed this argument too.
1. There are many potential causes of catastrophic changes: nuclear attack, asteroid impact, a global pandemic, etc. So why shouldn’t we raise taxes to fund efforts to mitigate one or more of those risks in addition to, or instead of, the risk of catastrophic climate change?
2. How much should we spend to mitigate the risk of catastrophe from climate change and these other things? If we can’t use cost-benefit analysis to figure out the right amount, how do we make a rational decision?
— Jerry · Jul 31, 10:14 PM · #
@ Jerry
Your/Manzi’s first point isn’t an argument. It’s a red herring.
— Console · Jul 31, 11:16 PM · #
Declaring a question to be a red herring is an evasion, not an answer. Why shouldn’t we raise taxes to fund efforts to mitigate the risks of catastrophe from nuclear war, asteroid impact, global pandemic, etc., in addition to, or instead of, the risk of catastrophe from climate change?
— Jerry · Aug 1, 12:33 AM · #
cw, I didn’t mean sharing in the leftMarxian sense by which Americans took land from Native people- -“Y
ou have so much more land than you can possibly use so give it to your Great White Father for the people who need it for their farms. Give it to us or we’ll treat you like the kulaks.
— The Reticulator · Aug 1, 08:02 AM · #
Jerry wrote,
Huh? You wrote that you think reducing consumption (of fossil fuels) is a worthy end in itself. Are you now retracting that claim? If not, why do you think reducing consumption is a worthy end in itself?
I beg your pardon: Reducing consumption as an end in and of itself is not a worthy goal… why would it be? The point of a carbon tax or any other policy is to reduce the consumption of fossil fuels in order to reduce CO2 emissions.
I think that Manzi’s and others’ argument that the list of low probability/high impact risks is so long that it dilutes the urgency of global warming is itself an evasion…. Yes, one could imagine spending some absurd fraction of GDP on the mitigation of all risks, but that is not going to happen in a democracy such as ours. GW is a far, far more salient issue world-wide than wandering asteroids or miniature black holes. We can’t see into the future, but the models I’ve seen predict short-term scenarios that are not pretty, particularly elsewhere in the world. When some of those scenarios begin to be realized, I believe that resistance to large-scale mitigation will finally dissipate among the majority of us…except among those who point to the endless list of low probability/high impact risks and say, “what about asteroids? What about this, what about that…?” There will always be such naysayers, no matter how hot it is.
FWIW, I predict that a presidential candidate within the next, say 50 years, will successfully run on a near-exclusive environmental platform.
— Bradley Cooke · Aug 1, 09:35 AM · #
Jim, I enjoy your blog. I would just stress that innovation takes many forms, including changes in consumption patterns, infrastructure, etc.
The magic of the market is that it give signals to each and every potential consumer and producer to take the relevant prices into account. That might mean living closer to work, telecommuting, buying a different car, painting the roof white, etc. Today, we’re seeing real progress on electric cars and the necessary complements as well.
As a result of billions of small and large choices by millions of people, Western Europe uses 77% less energy per dollar of GDP than the US does. See http://bit.ly/cYZ6Qj This looks like a rational and effective response to the price system to me.
-Erik
— Erik Brynjolfsson · Aug 1, 12:43 PM · #
Bradley Cooke,
Why is climate change more “salient” than nuclear war, asteroid impact, global pandemic, etc.? How do you know this? And even if climate change is more “more salient,” that doesn’t mean the other risks aren’t “salient” at all. So how should we decide how much money and other resources to devote to reducing the risk of catastrophe from each of these threats?
— Jerry · Aug 1, 04:03 PM · #
Your calculation completely ignores environmental differences like climate and land area. Western Europe has a temperate climate. The US has a much more extreme climate, with large temperature variations that require more energy for heating and cooling. The US also has much more land than Western Europe and a much lower population density, requiring much more energy for transportation. You also ignore differences in the nature of the economies due to the distribution of natural resources. Western Europe has relatively little natural resources and relatively little energy-intensive heavy industry. It mostly imports these things. So obviously this makes its energy intensity look good. Europe effectively “outsources” most of the energy-intensive materials and products it consumes to other countries.
— Jerry · Aug 1, 04:30 PM · #
Jerry: That’s an interesting list of conjectures.
If you’re right, then Norway should use more energy per GDP than the US. It has a more extreme climate. It’s population density is less than half of the USA density. It is a major net oil exporter with plenty of opportunity for energy intensive industry. However, in line with my post, it has much high energy taxes than the US.
So how does Norway compare to the USA?
It is 50% more energy efficient per dollar of GDP.
— Erik Brynjolfsson · Aug 1, 05:43 PM · #
Erik.
They’re not conjectures. They’re facts.
As for Norway, its economy is in fact much more energy-intensive than the European average (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_energy_intensity). So are the economies of all the sparsely-populated Nordic countries. Sweden uses about the same amount of energy per unit of GDP as the US. Finland and Iceland use more energy per unit of GDP than the US. In general, small and densely-populated nations are less energy-intensive, because their economies tend to be oriented more towards services, while large, sparsely-populated countries are more energy-intensive, because their economies tend to be oriented more towards natural resource extraction and processing.
Regarding climate, Norway’s population is overwhelmingly concentrated in the temperate, southern part of the country. So the harsh climate of the north has little impact on energy use. The US population, in contrast, is heavily concentrated in areas with extreme climate. The northeast and midwest (New York, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia, Washington, etc) have extremely cold winters, which requires lots of energy for heating, and the south and west (Houston, Dallas, Phoenix, San Antonio, Las Vegas, Miami, etc) have very hot/humid summers, which requires lots of energy for air conditioning.
— Jerry · Aug 1, 06:27 PM · #
The “conjecture” is that anything your list of factors made the energy price differences unimportant.
Also, your beliefs about the facts seem to be mistaken, e.g. the average winter temperature in Oslo is colder than Boston, the northernmost city you list.
Furthermore, according most recent figures Sweden, Finland, Norway and Denmark all are from 36 to 161% more energy efficient per unit GDP than the USA (See e.g. http://bit.ly/c8hbIL). You’re right about Iceland, but that reflects an enormous geothermal industry providing very cheap, sustainable, carbon-free energy. If you’re basing your argument on a tiny nation of 300,000 people perched on volcanoes, then you might want to reconsider.
In any event, I’m surprised that you would argue against the power of the price system to affect the decisions of consumers and producers. Why not embrace and harness the market instead of trying to show it will have no significant impact on energy efficiency?
— Erik Brynjolfsson · Aug 1, 06:59 PM · #
I didn’t say that “energy price differences are unimportant.” I’m saying that your claim that differences in energy intensity between the US and Europe are the result of “billions of small and large choices by millions of people” is bogus because it ignores the roles of climate, population density, natural resource distribution and other factors that influence energy use. Basically, you’re trying to argue that Europe has made superior policy choices regarding energy prices, on the grounds that European economies have lower average energy intensity than the US economy, and I’m responding that your argument is nonsensical. Your conclusion simply does not follow from your premise.
Er, Oslo’s climate is milder than Boston’s. Oslo’s winters are slightly colder than Boston’s, but Boston’s summers are much hotter than Oslo’s. Ditto for comparisons with other major US cities.
Your link provides no information on energy intensity for Sweden, Finland or Denmark, and no information about the source of its figures for Norway (other than “Wolfram knowledgebase,” whatever that means), so we know nothing about its reliability. Furthermore, the extreme volatility of the figures given in your source make single-year comparisons meaningless.
— Jerry · Aug 1, 07:37 PM · #
I’m glad you agree that energy price differences are important.
I’m glad you acknowledge that Oslo is colder than the coldest of the US cities you list. As you probably know, heating energy costs dominate A/C energy costs in those cities.
To verify the information for any of the other nations, simply type in their names in place of norway in the formula. If you don’t like the most recent year, feel free to use the average. The basic point will be unchanged.
But let’s not lose sight of the original point. It was Jim Manzi who pointed to Europe as a place where there was no significant energy saving innovation despite higher energy prices. Now that we see that Europe is in fact far more efficient, you are trying to argue that Europe’s relative efficiency is not a good benchmark.
Why not just admit that prices affect efficiency?
— Erik Brynjolfsson · Aug 1, 08:24 PM · #
You still don’t seem to get the point. The relationship between climate and energy use is more complex than just “which city is coldest.” As I have explained, the US uses more energy than Europe in part because the US has a more extreme climate. This has nothing to do with policies on energy prices. It’s simply a fact of nature. Other facts of nature, like the geographical distribution of natural resources, also affect differences between nations in energy use and energy intensity. So do differences in geographical size and population density, because these affect energy required for transportation. And so on. For these reasons and others, simply comparing the energy intensity of different nations tells you nothing meaningful about the relative merits of their energy policies.
— Jerry · Aug 1, 09:00 PM · #
Jerry asks,
Why is climate change more “salient” than nuclear war, asteroid impact, global pandemic, etc.?
Um, because it is obviously getting warmer…?
How do you know this?
See above. Everyone I speak to about the climate, including friends in Europe and Asia, also believes that the earth is getting warmer and are alarmed about it. And there seems to be an awareness of climate change among world leaders as well, witness the Kyoto and Copenhagen meetings. OK, this doesn’t prove global warming is psychologically more salient than asteroids or any of the other myriad risks that’re out there, but it certainly suggests it, don’t ya think?
And even if climate change is more “more salient,” that doesn’t mean the other risks aren’t “salient” at all. So how should we decide how much money and other resources to devote to reducing the risk of catastrophe from each of these threats?
The intended effect of this question asked by you and by Jim Manzi, it seems to me, is to paralyze us from making any changes in our behavior at all. Buridan’s ass is the story of the donkey between a pile of hay and a pail of water. It eventually dies because it can’t make up its mind. Here’s the solution: Stop worrying about small probability/high risk scenarios because we’ll deal with em when they happen.
Climate change is happening now, and all climate models predict increasing temperatures. Now, when I look around at the way things have changed so far, and realize that temps could increase by another 1 or 2 Cº in the next what 50-75 years, I get somewhat concerned.
Jim Manzi is right in one respect: We should do a cost-benefit analysis to decide what to do. My sense of the benefits associated with effective carbon mitigation, however, is obviously far more acute than his, or apparently, yours.
— Bradley Cooke · Aug 1, 09:00 PM · #
Um, how does that mean climate change is “more salient?” Yes, it’s getting warmer. But that doesn’t mean there is a greater risk of catastrophe from climate change than from nuclear attack, a comet/asteroid impact, a global pandemic, or something else. Rather than address this question seriously, you just wave your hand and dismiss these other threats as if they are mere science fiction fantasies unworthy of serious consideration.
No, the intended effect of the question is to try to get you to think RATIONALLY about the question of how much money and effort (if any) we should devote to reducing the risk of catastrophe from various threats, including, but not limited to, climate change. But you don’t seem to want to think about the issue rationally. You just seem to want to throw money indiscriminately at one particular threat without seriously considering whether it makes sense.
— Jerry · Aug 1, 09:22 PM · #
Jerry wrote,
Um, how does that mean climate change is “more salient?”
By salient I mean that it is more of a concern to me and a lot of other people than those other risks.
Yes, it’s getting warmer. But that doesn’t mean there is a greater risk of catastrophe from climate change than from nuclear attack, a comet/asteroid impact, a global pandemic, or something else.
I know that the list of catastrophic risks is long. It fact, its immeasurably long! There’s no way to know how many of those low probability risks there actually are. You and I could go on for hours imagining different scenarios… and tallying up the cost that it would take to mitigate the risk from each of these. That would be pretty expensive! And it would be a pretty good rational argument against doing anything to mitigate climate change.
Let’s take one of those examples of yours, Nuclear war. The factors that influence the probability of nuclear war are totally unknown, with the exception that it is likely to occur among nations with those weapons =) How much would it cost to mitigate this risk?
Global pandemic: A totally different situation. Its acute, it causes a lot of casualties very quickly, etc. I thought the response to swine flu last year was pretty impressive, actually. Note though that the powers-that-be didn’t sit around arguing that asteroid impacts were actually as probable as global pandemics, so… hey, what’s the big deal?
Nuclear war and global pandemics are so unlike climate change as to be absurd. Climate change is a natural phenomenon occurring for a patently obvious reason: The greenhouse effect. CO2 is a greenhouse gas. It traps heat in the atmosphere, and the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere is increasing. DUH! So, we should do something about it.
— Bradley Cooke · Aug 1, 11:13 PM · #
Yes, I know climate change is of more concern to you than nuclear war, etc. The question is whether your greater concern for climate change is rational.
Huh? To pick just one example, India and Pakistan are famously antagonistic. Both countries have nuclear weapons. You seriously think a major conflict between these two countries wouldn’t increase the probability of nuclear war?
Your comments about a global pandemic are completely nonresponsive to the issue. Why should we believe the risk of catastrophe from climate change is greater than the risk of catastrophe from a pandemic? Why should we believe that the money you want to spend on mitigating climate change wouldn’t produce a greater reduction in risk of catastrophe if it were spent on developing defenses against a pandemic? Where’s your analysis?
— Jerry · Aug 2, 01:06 PM · #
Jerry wrote, “Your comments about a global pandemic are completely nonresponsive to the issue. Why should we believe the risk of catastrophe from climate change is greater than the risk of catastrophe from a pandemic? Why should we believe that the money you want to spend on mitigating climate change wouldn’t produce a greater reduction in risk of catastrophe if it were spent on developing defenses against a pandemic? Where’s your analysis?”
Jerry, global warming has a pretty straightforward cause and a pretty straightforward solution. Furthermore, its occurring now and climate models predict a less habitable planet should things continue as they are.
Neither of these things is true about global pandemics or nuclear war. Yes, your point about Pakistan and India is correct (as I allowed with my remark about the necessity of having nuclear weapons), but can you estimate when there will be an exchange? Similarly, could you identify which type of virus will be responsible for the next pandemic? There are unknown unknowns about these particular issues.
You cannot make that claim about global warming. The cause of it is clear, and the solution is obvious. Given those facts, I think carbon mitigation is utterly rational. Furthermore, as I said in an earlier thread: It would be immoral to do nothing when there is even an infinitesimal chance that it could lead to demographic collapse, or worse.
Your argument rests on the idea that we as a society cannot walk and chew gum at the same time. I find it highly implausible that humans would not throw everything they have at halting a global pandemic because X dollars were being spent on carbon mitigation. That’s absurd! And we’re doing PLENTY to avoid widespread disease: Have you ever heard of the NIH or the CDC? Trust me: There’s a lot of frigging money being spent on epidemiology and medicine.
Can you imagine having this debate ~20 years ago about chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs)? Yet the science behind CFCs and ozone layer depletion was as clear as that for global warming. Humans quite rightly banned those substances, and we’ll live with a slowly closing ozone layer hole for the next several decades if not more. I’m so glad that those who kept pointing to the immeasurably long list of potential threats that may have posed a similar risk to an ozone layer hole (which was present and getting larger) were ignored, and action was taken to mitigate a serious environmental problem.
I don’t know about you, but I’m going to continue my small efforts to mitigate CO2 emissions. You and Jim can go ahead and keep finding nebulous new threats to rationalize doing nothing… it’ll keep you occupied for an indefinite length of time, I assure you of that. I’d just suggest that you carry an antiperspirant because… its going to get hotter.
— Bradley Cooke · Aug 2, 09:10 PM · #
@ Jerry
Your question is no more relevant than asking me what the price of tea in China is. How I feel we should deal with nuclear threats has dick all to do with how I feel we should deal with global warming. The two things have absolutely no causal connection. That’s why it’s a red herring.
Rather then actually apply the logical rigor of explaining why we should ignore catastrophic threats… you simply hope I have some sort of hypocrisy you can exploit to make up for your underdeveloped argument.
— Console · Aug 2, 09:21 PM · #
Bradley Cooke,
You are seriously misinformed. There is no “straightforward solution” to climate change. There is only the reduction of risk. No one has any clear idea how much a given reduction in emissions will buy in reduction of risk of catastrophic warming. We may already have pumped enough carbon into the atmosphere to induce catastrophic warming at some point in the future. It is an enormously complex scientific and public policy question. There’s no straightforward solution to the risks from nuclear war or global pandemic or asteroid impact, either. But there are plenty of ways we could spend more money to mitigate those risks too. You simply wave your hand and refuse to seriously consider any risk except the risk from global warming. It’s just completely irrational.
— Jerry · Aug 2, 09:58 PM · #
The question has nothing to do with any causal connection between them. It’s a matter of HOW MUCH MONEY AND OTHER RESOURCES we should devote to countering each of these threats. A rational distribution of resources requires a rational evaluation of the risks from each threat. Spending a trillion dollars on efforts to reduce nuclear proliferation and promote peace between nuclear powers, or to build an asteroid-deflection system, or to develop new drugs against infectious pathogens, or some combination of those things, might do more to safeguard the world than spending that same trillion dollars on reducing carbon emissions.
— Jerry · Aug 2, 10:13 PM · #
Jerry:
Again you use the immeasurable number of potential catastrophes as grounds to dismiss the real and dare I say obvious threat of GW. Tell me, how much time have you set aside from your daily life to measure the cost of mitigating all these nebulous risks? Will your task ever be finished, so that we can know what % of GDP we should devote to risk mitigation?…. Somehow, I doubt it.
And you’re right: We don’t really know what proximal effects the reduction of CO2 emissions will have. But if I were a betting man, I would wager that in the long run, reducing CO2 emissions will ultimately reduce global warming. Conversely, doing nothing—as you would advocate while counting angels on the head of a pin—will, I would bet, most assuredly lead to an increase in global temperatures.
Your use of “enormously complex” is a simply a dodge. The most parsimonious explanation of global warming is rising CO2 levels caused by human activity (do you deny this?). Therefore, the most straightforward solution to global warming is to reduce CO2 levels (do you deny this?).
How we get there is another question, and I am acutely aware of how difficult it is to execute public policy. But before policy can change, we must recognize the danger of global warming, so that collective action can be taken. Fortunately, some leaders around the world recognize the danger of global warming, and are trying to do something about it. There are others who will be left behind, saying, “Yeah, but what about an invasion from outer space? And what about chicken pox… that could always mutate again… Or a pandemic of athlete’s foot?” The list of potential catastrophes is ENDLESS and thus, there is no way to calculate probabilities.
In contrast, global warming is real, and very much a risk. I hope the voices of those who would caution delay are ignored by those of us who recognize the potentially serious crisis that global warming may cause.
Your and Manzi’s argument relies on equating a low probability outcome of a phenomenon that IS occurring with events that have an undefined probability. If I were in charge of public policy, I would direct my attention toward the first situation, rather than the second.
— Bradley Cooke · Aug 2, 10:43 PM · #
Voronezh, Russia (CNN) — Russian authorities have imposed a state of emergency around about 500 towns and villages because of wildfires burning across the west of the country, officials said Monday.
Most of the fires — among the worst ever to hit the region — were started accidentally by people burning garbage, dropping cigarettes, or failing to extinguish campfires or barbecues properly, Emergency Situations Ministry representative Irina Andrianova said.
Nearly 700 fires are burning, covering about 115,000 hectares, she said. That is nearly 450 square miles. A hectare is about the size of a baseball field or an international rugby pitch.
Some 34 people have been confirmed dead, Andrianova said. That includes two firefighters, the Russian news agency Itar-Tass reported over the weekend, citing the emergencies ministry.
Firefighters moved in to protect 86,000 people from the fires, she said.
About 5,000 of those people fled their homes. The rest are from 265 villages and towns that were protected from the blazes by firefighters, but did not have to evacuate, she said.
Heat and drought have made Russia especially susceptible to wildfires, she said. High temperatures are expected to continue through the middle of August, with no rain forecast.
Authorities said Sunday that firefighters were gaining control over the blazes.
— Bradley Cooke · Aug 3, 12:03 AM · #
Very valuable information, I am very grateful…
— designer clothes · Aug 4, 04:21 AM · #