Christianity Isn’t the Only Thing in Crisis: A Reply to Andrew Sullivan
Andrew Sullivan has written a cover story for Newsweek (disclosure: where I also work) that I think deserves attention and scrutiny. It could not be more timely, and in many ways more needed. But even as it advances some crucial criticisms of the contemporary monstrosity that presents itself as Christianity, I think there is a lot more to be said. Specifically, I’m not sure Andrew’s political framework is up to the task of diagnosing the real crisis we face as inhabitants of Western democracy. If only things were as easy as putting a mutant political Christianity back in its cage.
I have read Andrew’s bracingly honest writing about his own faith enough to know that his Christianity is deeply considered and deeply sincere. In many ways, I sympathize with where he has ended up as a believer: a follower of Christ who wants his readers to understand the purity of Jesus’ life and moral teachings before the contaminations of worldy movements and interests, even those of Jesus’ own disciples and the early Christians who authored the New Testament. The strange, countercultural liberty of the “religion of unachievement,” is what I think moves Andrew so powerfully. Despite what I’m about to argue, I understand how this can be practiced and understood as apolitical, even anti-political.
Andrew describes Jesus’ ideas as “truly radical,” for example, “love your enemy and forgive those who harm you; give up all material wealth.” His project is to convince us that these “radical” ideas are also “apolitical,” that when salvaged from the tangle of theological and political movements that have distorted them, they are something pure, spiritual and otherworldly. Like a good liberal individualist, he reads all of these virtues as a kind of private interior experience, something I’m not sure Jesus ever intended them to mean. Jesus’ ideas are not anti-worldly in the sense that they help guard one’s inner peace against the chaos of the Internet, but in the sense that they challenge the way most human societies work. This is certainly why Jesus was executed, and why the spread of Christianity was met with bloody resistance: he claimed to have a kingdom, threatened to “destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days,” and preached a kind of forgiveness and self-sacrifice that upended and undermined established Jewish law. It is almost impossible to imagine Jesus “without politics,” as Andrew would have him, or that practicing his “pure” ideas would be anything less than an affront to an established political order—as they are invariably perceived wherever they manifest themselves.
So the pure, radical Jesus does not seem to be the one Andrew is really recommending. I would argue that there is another Jesus in the picture who is as much a modern political construction as the god of Rick Santorum. He goes without a name in Andrew’s essay, much like he does in America’s founding documents. Most often when Andrew is describing “good” Christianity, his Jesus seems to dovetail with pragmatic moderate-liberal politics. He wants Christians to be “faithful in a religious space and reasonable in a political one.” It is immensely revelatory that he opens with an admiring retelling of Thomas Jefferson’s cutting out the “good parts” of the New Testament—leaving only the words of Jesus that amount to, in Jefferson’s words, a “benevolent code of morals.” I would argue that it’s this Jesus, not the historical, radical one that Andrew is most interested in.
The Jesus who lives in your heart but doesn’t care much who you vote for or what kind of country you think the United States should be is the result of a long philosophical evolution that began with theorists who explicitly set out to separate Christian principles from their apocalyptic, metaphysical content. That produced liberal democracy, with its dream of a neutral secular state, a politics of compromise, and religion that expressed itself outside the political arena. The liberal view is that this actually went according to plan, and that it continues to be a workable if imperfect setup.
When Andrew says that Christianity is “in crisis,” of course he is concerned that the plain meaning of Jesus’ teaching is being travestied. But, as he makes very clear, he also means that Christianity has jumped the wall between church and state—that it is once again placing metaphysical demands on politics, insisting that politics matter, and that they extend beyond setting next year’s tax levels and paving highways. This is by no means only Andrew’s view; it is the view of virtually every Serious Person in Washington and New York, every mainstream media pundit complaining about strident political discourse, protesters that are too angry, and political parties that just refuse to get with the program and compromise. As religion seems to overstep its bounds, the Serious People tell us that the system is experiencing “atrophy,” a devolution from the enlightened ideal we once enjoyed. Religion—and secular forms of political belief like genuine leftism—is delivering its final gasping howl of protest against modernity, and the sooner it runs out of breath, the sooner we can get back to the inevitable march of progress.
But I think liberals are deluding themselves about the success of what Mark Lilla has called the “Great Separation.” There were fatal cracks from the beginning, and it was only a matter of time before it plunged into crisis. Liberalism’s troubles with belief were apparent as far back as Rousseau’s Social Contract, which concluded with a hastily-written chapter on what the hell to do about religion. He couldn’t throw it out—no we’d need it the moral formation and social cohesion it provides, much like Jefferson’s “benevolent code of morals.” But he clearly couldn’t keep it, either: because actual Christianity is so pure and anti-worldly, Rousseau argued, it is “contrary to the social spirit.” So he proposed a familiar duality: a “religion of man, and that of the citizen.” The Social Contract ended with an uncomfortably tacked-on solution: people can believe whatever they want as long as it helps the state and doesn’t keep them from being good citizens. In other words, the radical teachings of Jesus are an anathema to the social contract—“pure” Jesus is anything but liberal.
Liberalism set up a house divided against itself from day one: it would ostensibly welcome belief while remaining deeply, necessarily hostile to actual religious belief with metaphysical content, especially if that content posed a challenge to its own secularized Christian theology. (Make no mistake: the liberal state has a theology grounded in a metaphysics; if you doubt this, read some John Locke, or just the Declaration of Independence.) Contemporary Protestantism evolved hand-in-hand with modernity and with liberal capitalism, meaning that is broadly compatible with those projects.
But it’s not surprising to see a crisis of belief bound up in political crisis; the two are intimately related. If the numbers tell the truth, liberal Christianity has failed as a motivational force for liberal society, leaving a blend of disenchanted agnosticism and pseudo-spiritual scams. Liberalism’s partisans will continue to try to discredit and marginalize both religious and political movements that see politics as an arena where deep, metaphysically important decisions take place; this is why you will always find good liberals positioning themselves as the pragmatic, non-partisan decision-makers between the populist right and the radical left. Those movements bring high-stakes convictions into the picture, and have increasing resonance in a context where global liberalism has so deeply discredited its own promises of law, liberty, opportunity. The default response in Western democracies is anxious boredom, produced by decades of belief that politics don’t matter. But it’s no surprise to see the disenchanted turn to movements that provide actual metaphysical energy—the very thing liberalism cannot abide, cannot provide, and in the face of which it seems to be utterly without answer.
Where this leaves us is a paradox that stretches back into political theory: the need for belief in a world where belief seems to have been thoroughly discredited. It is terrifying to imagine that the failure of the secular liberal state might lead us back into murderous political theology, but a simple reassertion of liberalism’s core dogmas will not save us now. How to breathe life back into politics—to allow them to matter the way they actually do—without returning to false gods might be described as the leading challenge of contemporary philosophy. I’m glad that people like Andrew are able to find personal meaning and value in the liberalized version of Christianity, and that is certainly preferable to the virus spread by the likes of Rick Santorum. But I’m afraid we’re long past the point of the liberal Jesus being the collective messiah.
[Cross-posted at Patrol]
Simply an outstanding post. Couldn’t have put it better, not by a long stretch.
— PEG · Apr 3, 04:05 PM · #
Very nice great!
— dissertation service · Apr 3, 05:20 PM · #
Amazing post! Thanks a lot.
— free essays · Apr 4, 08:23 AM · #
(Make no mistake: the liberal state has a theology grounded in a metaphysics; if you doubt this, read some John Locke, or just the Declaration of Independence.)
Ok, I read them. Still, seems like there are many possible metaphysical groundings for liberalism besides Locke’s —-which is itself a bit, shall we say, ambiguous. The Declaration’s metaphysics is pretty sketchy, too. So my doubts about which metaphysics and which theology is liberalism’s remains.
— matt · Apr 4, 10:01 AM · #
Very interesting post! Thanks a lot for it.
— essay · Apr 4, 10:48 AM · #
I think Christians like yourself would be better served taking a step back before you try to ground your faith in a “historical, radical” Jesus Christ, since there’s precious little evidence that a “historical” Jesus existed.
Andrew highlights the parts of a work of fiction that mean the most to him, and you highlight the parts that mean the most to you. I wish you both the best in that endeavor. But arguing, as you both are, about who’s got a line on the “real” Jesus is as fruitful as arguing about whether it was Kenneth Branagh or Lawrence Olivier who best captured the “real Hamlet.” The whole notion that there’s anything out there that represents “real Christianity” is lunacy. Andrew Sullivan and Rick Santorum are both Christians, and you are, too.
— Chet · Apr 4, 05:49 PM · #
Chet –
I think I sort of agree with you, but you’ve misunderstood my motive in challenging Andrew’s version of Christianity. It’s not because I want to advance “my” view of Christianity or really defend it at all. Andrew is much more of a Christian than I am in terms of faith, belief, etc. I don’t believe any of it. I just think there is a more or less historical, more or less theologically accurate view of Jesus that is not at all captured by the Deistic/liberal-democratic version Andrew believes in. His political framework shapes his Christ, not the other way around.
Most people working in philosophy take actual, historical Christianity to have been discredited as an explanation of humanity and politics long ago, and I more or less agree. But I’m pointing out to Andrew that his moderate, updated version is discredited as well. And because it is the foundation of the political system we have, the whole shebang is in trouble. I don’t know what to do about it, and I’m certainly not suggesting we go back to what I called a Christianity with metaphysical content. Just pointing out that it’s in trouble, and we can’t pretend more liberal platitudes will save us.
— David Seessions · Apr 5, 09:48 AM · #
I don’t understand what “theologically accurate” means. Can you explain? Andrew’s conception of Jesus is perfectly accurate and consonant with Andrew’s theology. How could it be otherwise?
And sure, his Jesus isn’t consonant with your theology, or Rick Santorum’s, but why would it be? He has to live his own faith, he can’t live yours for you.
The foundation of the political system we have is the US Constitution, two centuries of legislation, and a host of traditional social practice that is in more or less constant but low-level flux. It’s “in trouble”? I don’t see anything to support that in your argument but handwaving.
— Chet · Apr 5, 10:20 AM · #
Chet,
Precious little evidence that a historical Jesus existed? Wikipedia says your view has little scholarly support.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#Mythical_view
— JJH · Apr 5, 12:24 PM · #
I guess my quibble is with Andrew’s terminology: he wants to claim that his Jesus is “radical,” while glossing over/obscuring/dismissing the importance of the parts of Jesus that might actually be considered radical. While there is no ‘real Jesus,’ and he can be interpreted many ways, some interpretations are more of a stretch than others. The separation-of-church-and-state Jesus is one of the least plausible, based on Jesus’ words, actions, and the way he has been most consistently interpreted by the church. Not “wrong,” just unconvincing.
Do you think the US Constitution materialized out of thin air, with no political/theological tradition or context that produced it? Of course I’m not saying it’s a “Christian document”, but in a philosophical sense it certainly is. The ideas about government and citizens, about rights, checks and balances, etc, are all immediate descendants of the Deistic theology of the British enlightenment. If you read any one of these people, they can’t stop going on about natural law, natural order, etc, established by God and discovered by reason. From a philosophical point of view, those are profound metaphysical assumptions; if you’re Nietzsche or Heidegger or Derrida, it looks more like Christianity to you than anything else.
About the system being in trouble, oh where to begin? Primarily, I mean in an existential sense: it doesn’t know what to believe about itself, whether it can legitimately defend itself, who gets to be a part of it, etc. That coincides with the straight-up political crisis of capitalism – social turmoil stemming from human values being constantly wiped out by the demands of the market; waste, unemployment, economic misery and other consequences of plutocracy; a constitution unable to cope with the rapidly aggregating problems of a complex advanced-capitalist society; international conflict driven by its necessary consumption and expansion. That’s not even to mention the compromised legitimacy of institutions: executives who can launch wars and order assassinations outside the law; a legislature almost entirely controlled by special interests; a politicized judiciary, etc. And related to the issue I wrote about, fundamentalist religion seeking its overthrow from both inside (Christian) and outside (Islamic). I don’t see how it’s possible to imagine that everything is fine and that it’s just in “low-level flux.”
— David Seessions · Apr 5, 12:43 PM · #
I missed that claim, JJH, but you’re absolutely right. The claim that there is little/no evidence for Jesus’ existence is considered a fringe view by leading scholars. For more, I recommend Bart Ehrman’s forthcoming book on the subject. He is not a believer, but argues that disbelieving in Jesus’ existence is crazy.
— David Sessions · Apr 5, 12:46 PM · #
[it all goes back to] the Deistic theology of the British enlightenment. If you read any one of these people, they can’t stop going on about natural law, natural order, etc, established by God and discovered by reason.
1) The Enlightenment is a whole lot more diverse and complicated than that. Compare Spinoza to Kant to Rousseau on these questions. Or to stay on the British Isles, compare Locke to Hobbes, and either of them to Smith.
2) Even if people in the past thought modern liberalism had a certain metaphysical grounding, they could have been wrong. If you want to say that our society depends on ethical deism, I think you have to make the case on the merits.
— matt · Apr 5, 04:24 PM · #
The Enlightenment is a whole lot more diverse and complicated than that. Compare Spinoza to Kant to Rousseau on these questions. Or to stay on the British Isles, compare Locke to Hobbes, and either of them to Smith.
— xjykobe · Apr 5, 06:28 PM · #
JJH, I think you’ll find that all scholars agree that little evidence for the historical existence of Jesus exists; the debate is whether that little evidence is nonetheless sufficient to support the historical existence of a real Jesus.
No serious scholar is out there claiming that there are mountains of overwhelming evidence for the historical existence of Jesus. Everyone agrees that the evidence is scant; some people think it’s enough regardless and others think it’s not.
— Chet · Apr 5, 06:53 PM · #
No, of course not. But I’ve never been able to understand people who think that the Constitution is a Christian document. The First Commandment: Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. The First Amendment: Congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise of religion. How can the two be reconciled?
Deists and atheists wrote the Constitution, as well as Christians.
Wait, what? The system doesn’t know? How can a “system” believe or know anything?
….ooohhhhh. Let this be the part where I back away from you, without making sudden moves.
— Chet · Apr 5, 06:57 PM · #
Chet,
You implied Jesus’ historical existence was unlikely, and most scholars disagree with you. The debate you refer to was a lively one a hundred years ago, but the broad consensus of contemporary scholarship is that Jesus really did exist.
— JJH · Apr 5, 10:04 PM · #
I just think there is a more or less historical, more or less theologically accurate view of Jesus that is not at all captured by the Deistic/liberal-democratic version Andrew believes in.http://www.celinebagscheap.com
— celine outlet · Apr 5, 11:25 PM · #
The question, though, is what the evidence can support. But, of course, Bart Ehrman thinks even asking is stupid, so, that settles that I guess.
— Chet · Apr 6, 08:13 AM · #
“The question, though, is what the evidence can support.”
No, the question is what is more reasonable.
The Great Fire of Rome took place in 64 AD. Nero blamed the Christians for it. That is historical fact, as far as I can determine. That means there were Christians, Christian churches and Christian sub-communities existing in the immediate aftermath of Jesus Christ. Now, if Christianity were something that sprung up a century or more after it’s titular savior, the whole “Did Christ really exist” thing might have some legs.
Now, the divinity of Jesus is a whole ‘nother subject. But the alternative explanation for the origin and rise of Christianity AND its radical, world-changing message in the absence of Christ is so fantastic and ridiculous it makes the whole “Supreme Being impregnates virgin” thing seem like the far more probable scenario.
Mike
— MBunge · Apr 6, 10:41 AM · #
And it’s always reasonable to suggest that the central figures of religions are probably not real.
— Chet · Apr 6, 11:43 AM · #
“And it’s always reasonable to suggest that the central figures of religions are probably not real.”
Uh, no. It may be more reasonable to suggest they’re not divine. That really has nothing to do with whether they existed or not.
Have you ever sat down and tried to come up with an alternative explanation for Chrisianity that actually explains ALL the things that had to happen for it to occur without the existence of some dude named Jesus?
Mike
— MBunge · Apr 6, 01:47 PM · #
David — appreciate the thoughtful post.
What type of “decisions” do you have in mind for “Liberalism’s partisans will continue to try to discredit and marginalize both religious and political movements that see politics as an arena where deep, metaphysically important decisions take place;”?
Or what type of beliefs are thoroughly discredited by secularists? Are we talking about certain normative positions or the appeal to metaphysical rationale for those positions?
— walker · Apr 6, 05:04 PM · #
Sure. The explanation is as simple as “stories were told about a radical messiah named Yeshua, and were believed.” Same as John Frum; same as Jesus Malverde, to name two similar examples of messianic legends just from the 20th century. There’s nothing magical about telling whoppers and having people believe them.
— Chet · Apr 6, 05:16 PM · #
It’s amusing (and sad) that critics of orthodox Christianity invariably start by throwing out the majority of accepted Christian scriptures, build their own view of what Christianity should be and then turn around and condemn orthodox Christians because they don’t act the way that their truncated view of Christianity says they should act. And then they wonder in confusion about why Christians might appear to be offended when criticized by someone who refuses to judge them in the context of their entire package of beliefs rather than just a carefully selected subset of it.
— Jon · Apr 6, 08:05 PM · #
MODERN “JEWS” ARE NO MORE DESCENDED FROM MOSES AND KING DAVID THAN MY DOG IS. They’re descended from Khazarian barbarians. About 750 A.D. the Khazarian’s leader, King Bulan, decided to adopt a “one God” religion for his people, so he invited representatives of Christianity, Islam and Judaism to present their dogma. King Bulan chose Judaism. If he had chosen Christianity, it would have aroused the anger of the large number of followers of Islam in the surrounding area; and if he had chosen Islam, it would have aroused the anger of the large number of Christians around them. So, he played it safe – he chose Judaism. BY THE WAY, THIS BOOK WAS WRITTEN BY A “JEW”.
http://iamthewitness.com/books/Jack.Bernstein/My.Farewell.to.Israel.htm
DEAN BERRY MINISTRIES: “I speak the truth. You don’t like it? It’s still the truth.”
— DEAN BERRY MINISTRIES · Apr 7, 01:51 PM · #
Dean Berry Ministries seems to be thinking in terms of genetic descent. I hope he realizes that’s not the only kind.
— The Reticulator · Apr 8, 12:08 AM · #
David,
Great post.
“Where this leaves us is a paradox that stretches back into political theory: the need for belief in a world where belief seems to have been thoroughly discredited. It is terrifying to imagine that the failure of the secular liberal state might lead us back into murderous political theology, but a simple reassertion of liberalism’s core dogmas will not save us now. How to breathe life back into politics—to allow them to matter the way they actually do—without returning to false gods might be described as the leading challenge of contemporary philosophy. “
What if faith is developmental? What if the next stage, beyond liberalism and its undemanding, non-metaphysics, is not going to be a return to the metaphysical, often violently black and white “truths”, i.e., “false gods”? What if something new is trying to emerge, something that transcends and includes what came before, as I would say deist liberalism emerged during the Enlightenment from traditional, hard and fast metaphysical Christianity? The outlines of an emergent Integral PostMetaphysics are not yet clear. But might this all be progressive, instead of merely chaotic, or necessarily having the ground swallowed by an older religious fierceness?
Is it possible we are actually developing? Is it possible history is going somewhere?
What might it look like, you will ask? I can only suggest that for the Integral Stage that may be upon us, Jesus will not be the fiery social activist calling for an in the world kingdom of social justice. Now will he be a sweet-tempered liberal softened by the new discovery of Reason and its call for universal human rights. Or more precisely, he will be both of these AND the self-realized, enlightened Wisdom Master calling each of us to grow personally, to transform our interior beings until we, too, enter the Kingdom. The new, developing Masters will be in politics, but not exclusively; for both the individual and the community must transform together in this Integral worldview.
I am speaking from the perspective of Ken Wilber and his Integral Institute. For me, it all makes more sense if we think in terms of stages of consciousness (and faith) that evolves over time.
— jstuart902 · Apr 8, 04:18 PM · #
That’s going to be a hard sell to the party that denies evolution.
— Chet · Apr 8, 05:02 PM · #
“This is certainly why Jesus was executed, and why the spread of Christianity was met with bloody resistance”
No. The spread of Christianity was met with “bloody resistance” because the Christians wanted to be martyred. When dragged before Roman magistrates to answer why they didn’t participate in civic festivals and religion, they claimed the Commandment against worshiping other gods prevented them from doing so. When Roman Magistrates then said “oh, you worship the Jewish God”, a faith who’s aversion to Roman civic religion was tolerated and permitted legally, they denied they were; a blatant falsehood considering that stipulation is a part of the Mosaic law. When told they would be executed if they did not claim this religious exemption, they asked to be executed. That’s why there was “bloody resistance” outside of Israel, Judea, and Samaria; because the Christians actively pursued execution. Within the lands governed by the Temple the reason for violence was much simpler; they were heretics, and the Temple of Yahweh had always dealt with both heretics and unbelievers through the sword. Coincidentally, it was this dedication to intolerance that eventually forced the Romans (not exactly nice guys themselves)to destroy the Temple, and the arrogant priestly caste that administered it.
Of course, calling it “bloody resistance” is misleading to begin with. It paints a picture of active, violent resistance across the Roman world to an implacable spread, when in fact a grand total of two emperors made it a point to persecute Christians, and Christianity itself didn’t really take off until Constantine’s sons declared it the only religion and set about using the full power of the Roman state to enforce it. Of the persecutors, one did so to scapegoat Christians for his own failings, while the other did so in response to a radical Christian cleric who had openly called for rebellion. Outside of those two periods, and the reign of the first Emperor Julian who’s attempts to establish equal toleration for the old faith met real violent resistance from the by then entrenched Christian hierarchy, the “bloody resistance” you speak of consisted of Christians going up to Roman officials and basically asking to be executed. The common Roman Magistrate’s reaction to finding himself faced with death-seeking Christians wasn’t anger, but rather saddened perplexity.
— Heron · Apr 9, 12:43 AM · #
because the Christians wanted to be martyred.
Sure, just like Fidel’s victims basically asked to be tortured. And rape victims usually are asking for it, too.
— The Reticulator · Apr 9, 06:55 AM · #
“Sure. The explanation is as simple as “stories were told about a radical messiah named Yeshua, and were believed.””
Who told the stories? Why did they tell them? Why were they believed? How did they come up with the stories? Why did they continue to tell them when all it got them was hardship? How did they decide what stories to tell? Why didn’t people who had proof the stories were bull say so at the time?
And that’s just for starters. It’s almost too bad that atheism has become so acceptable that lazy, ignorant atheists are becoming the norm.
Mike
— MBunge · Apr 9, 04:52 PM · #
Who cares? People tell stories. People are believed when they tell stories. That’s completely prosaic human reality, unchanged throughout history. It’s hardly something that requires an unusual explanation.
Who are you talking about, here, specifically? Who had any proof at all?
Oh, as opposed to your ignorant, lazy historicism?
— Chet · Apr 9, 07:44 PM · #
“Who cares?”
We’re not talking about people bullshitting over the communal campfire. We’re talking about an organized religious movement that perservered in the face of murderous oppression until it became the dominant philosophical force in Western Civilization for 2000 years. Where these stories came from and why is kind of important.
“Who are you talking about, here, specifically? Who had any proof at all?”
Christianity started out as a Jewish sect. That’s how they saw themselves. That’s how other Jews would have seen them. If you were either the Jewish religious or secular authorities and you had this cult of crazy and at-times apocalypic Jews running around out there and their whole shtick was based on what would have been, at that time, easily disproved lies…wouldn’t you have said something about it? Finding out whether this Jesus guy existed wouldn’t have been that hard for anyone in a political, governmental or religious position in 40 or 50 AD. Yet, I’ve never seen any contemporary allegations from Jews or Romans or anyone of the era that Jesus wasn’t a real person.
“Oh, as opposed to your ignorant, lazy historicism?”
When being an atheist was something that would bring you regular opposition and challenge, you had to be both smart and informed on the subject. Nowadays, athiests can be just as stupid and uneducated as your average church-goer in the Dark Ages. Here you are talking about Jesus Christ never existing and it’s clear you haven’t actually given the matter a single second of intelligent thought.
Mike
— MBunge · Apr 9, 09:29 PM · #
So what? Buddhism became the dominant Asian philosophical force over an even shorter time scale (despite equally brutal oppression) but I suspect you don’t consider that proof of the fundamental truthiness of Buddhist claims.
Again – stories were told, and were believed. Every little bit of nonsense seems to have people ready to die for it. Martyrs don’t prove that something is true.
But again – who specifically had the proof, and what did they have? Who would have cared enough to research it in an age when research wasn’t invented yet?
Stories were told, and were believed. I can think of nothing more prosaic. The regular churn of history produces countless storytellers who inflame minds and capture hearts with stories people carry out onto battlefields. Since the First Century, millions of Christians have gone on to either die for the faith or murder for it, all on the basis of no more evidence than I suggest the First Christians had, as well. Nothing unreasonable, here.
And that may explain why Christianity was hardly a significant movement in those days, widely ignored by the chroniclers of the time. Not everyone finds proof convincing even in our post-Enlightenment age, and why would that have been different in the First Century? Call it 40 AD’s version of the “birther” movement.
To the contrary, it’s an issue I’ve studied for two years. And the amazing thing is how little historicists have to bring to the issue beyond invective. Even Bart Ehrman’s new book is nothing but the repeated mantra that doubting the historical existence of Jesus is an act of intellectual suicide. Not a single piece of real evidence to be found.
— Chet · Apr 10, 07:49 AM · #
“I suspect you don’t consider that proof of the fundamental truthiness of Buddhist claims.”
Idiot, this has nothing to do with the truth of anyone’s claims. This has to do with what is more reasonable – there was once a guy named Jesus who said and did some stuff or there wasn’t. It is entirely possible that some entirely human religious leader named Jesus existed 2,000 years ago but that every single story we have about him today is bullshit. But if there was no Jesus at all, where did those stories come from? Who came up with them? How did they come up with them? Why did they come up with them?
I have no doubt you spent two years “studying” the issue. Now try to spend a single second actually thinking about it.
Mike
— MBunge · Apr 11, 02:41 PM · #
And it’s more reasonable to conclude that, like Jesus Malverde and John Frum, there never was a recognizable, historical Jesus.
From imagination, like all such stories.
No, it’s time for you to spend a single second thinking about it. For instance, why would a Jew born to Jews oppressed by Romans have a Greek name? That alone makes it absurd to conclude that “there was an entirely human religious leader named Jesus” at the center of Christianity.
— Chet · Apr 11, 02:45 PM · #