A completely oversimplified look at US vs French education systems
I’m pretty sure the US educational system is superior to the French one. This is sort of a counterintuitive idea, in part because the narrative the US school reform movement tells itself is based on the idea of OMG US education is THE WORSE EVAR that won’t let us win the future by beating the Chinamen at math.
And there are those international comparisons that look pretty bad (even though they’re generally not normalized by income, family situation and the like).
But here’s another way to look at it. Let’s play a little veil of ignorance game: what can you reasonably expect, as a child, in either country?
Painted with a very broad brush:
Born in the underclass, in the US: You’re pretty much fucked. Your school is a stereotypical rundown den of pathological behavior where unionized, talentless, unmotivated teachers are just punching the clock.
Born in the underclass, in France: You’re pretty much fucked. Your school is a stereotypical rundown den of pathological behavior where unionized, talentless, unmotivated teachers are just punching the clock.
Born in the middle class, in France: Your local public school is mediocre. You will come out with terrible spelling and grammar. You probably won’t be numerate.
If you have any affinities beyond the most narrowly academic, unless you’re very lucky or very determined, you’re fucked. You will be categorized as dumb and put in tracks that will end up with you on the unemployment line.
Want something better, or just different? Tough luck. Maybe there’s a local Catholic school, but it’s a big expense, and anyway private schools must obey government curriculums, which means they won’t really be any different.
Born in the middle class, in the US: Your local public school is mediocre. You will come out with terrible spelling and grammar. You probably won’t be numerate.
But hey, at least you can pick and choose among some of your classes, there’s a school play, there’s probably a sports team, there’s a glee club, and A/V club or whatever. High school is a mean, and cruel scene, but there’s probably a little bit of something for everyone.
If you want something different, however, you’re in luck! It’s not going to be easy, but there’s plenty of options. Private school is expensive (even though there are scholarships—not for everyone, but better than the zero of France). And by now, even the smallest cities in the US have either a magnet school or a charter school, or some weird school that focuses on teaching classics or arts or is a Montessori school. If your parents want to homeschool, there are probably other students and parents near you who are doing it who will help you, and there’s a wealth of resources on the internet.
The point is that things could and should be a heck of a lot better, but there are many more opportunities to do something different.
Born in the upper class, in France: If you enjoy schoolwork, you will come out of high school knowing a lot of math, more than sophomore math majors at all but the top-tier US universities. You will also probably know some history (nothing before 1789), and have read two or three classics of French literature (nothing before 1830). You will vaguely know who Plato, Descartes and Kant are. If your parents are old-fashioned, you will know a few words of Latin. Your odds of having proper spelling and grammar are about 50-50.
If you enjoy extracurricular activities of any sort—programming, or chess, or art, or music, or sports at any sort of advanced or competitive level—sorry, you’re on your own! And anyway you probably shouldn’t have extracurricular activities, because if you want a good shot at life, after high school comes 2-3 years of cram school for the entrance exams to the grandes écoles, where you’re expected to study for 70-80 hours a week.
Born in the upper class, in the US: You have access to schools that are orders of magnitude better than anything else the world has to offer.
Again, painted with a very broad brush, but the core idea, it seems to me, from both anecdotal and statistical evidence, is accurate, that for a given family in a given situation, if you’re in the US, it’s hard to be worse off than in France, and often there are many more possibilities to be better off.
But I am skeptical about the US university thing — at least the undergraduate level. In my family the conventional wisdom was that US undegrad education was a bit soft. Basically another kind of high school. I admit the evidence for this was either thin (I observed this from watching American sitcoms) or biased (my Dad is a non-US academic who perhaps discussed it with American colleagues).
BTW: every man and his dog seems to be writing about an “Economist gets lunch”, but I want to hear about it from PEG. Especially now that it has been “linked to French vs. American parenting methods:“http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/29653:/how-american-food-got-bad-veronique-de-rugy.
— Adrian Ratnapala · Apr 22, 06:41 PM · #
Truly among the stupidest TAS posts yet. I’m looking forward to the inevitable Freddie takedown. I suppose it’s not the kind of thing that someone like PEG would know anything about, but for a student in an underperforming US inner city school, there’s a lot worse to be faced day after day than a (quelle horreur!) unionized teacher. Gun violence, the hardest drugs, sexual assault.
You can go a lot further into “you’re fucked” territory than just not having access to the right after-school programs.
— Chet · Apr 23, 12:41 AM · #
Your piece was entertaining to read but that’s it. There was no evidence provided to back up your claims. How do you know teachers in low-income areas have no passion and completely suck? Those teachers deal with a completely different set of challenges than those in other wealthier areas. Maybe if they were provided with more resources and support the education system would vastly improve. Also, can you provide some hard data as opposed to a opinionated, hyperbolic rant?
— MonicaJK · Apr 23, 03:35 AM · #
You must be using a different defintion of “middle class” than the one I’m used to. Generally, middle class schools are better than what you described, at least in the US. And you totally left out the upper middle class, an important grouping in the US.
I also find it hard to believe that good French students are as ignorant of history and literature as you have described.
— Cuneiform Specialist · Apr 23, 10:30 AM · #
Chet, I read PEG as saying that the unmotivated teachers would not do anything material to protect students from the “pathological behavior” that PEG also mentioned.
I suppose that when he does his inevitable takedown, Freddie should discuss whether the pathological behavior is worse here or in France. (I have no idea).
— J Mann · Apr 23, 02:59 PM · #
MonicaJK, if you are new to Gobry’s editorials, the post above is pretty typical: blithe, supercilious observations poised in just enough fake self-deprecation and sarcasm that he can effectively roll his eyes in reply to remarks like yours. After all, didn’t he admit from the top that his take is “completely oversimplified?” Don’t be such a sourpuss. Of course, he’s smart enough to suspect that teachers in “underclass” schools face a vastly different environment— that whatever invention and inspiration is allegedly sapped by union membership, it goes a short distance to explaining different outcomes. But, c’mon, he glossed over that with his “broad brush” remark, right? He can vent lame stereotypes of teachers in the public sector, but he’s obviously doing so in a twitting spirit. Lighten the fuck up!
— pamela · Apr 23, 05:29 PM · #
MonicaJK:
The post is an opinionated rant. “Completely oversimplified” is right there in the title. And yes, I’m sure teachers in bad areas could do a lot with the proper resources and motivation. But they don’t have it, which is my point.
— PEG · Apr 24, 07:06 AM · #
Adrian Ratnapala: Hi. This post isn’t about post-secondary education but primary and secondary.
Re: An Economist Gets Lunch, I’ve bought the book but haven’t read it yet. When I have, I may write about it.
Thanks for your comment.
Cuneiform Specialist: Thanks for your comment. I agree with you that public schools for the middle class in the US are “pretty good” on a national and international relative basis, but I think they’re also very bad on an absolute basis. I definitely think they’re better than comparable French schools.
Re: the upper middle class, that is a very astute point, but again the goal of the post is to paint with a very broad brush.
Re: the ignorance of good French students—my God. It’s awful. I attended elite French institutions through most of my education, I know wherefrom I speak.
J Mann: Right.
pamela: Ouch! You got me!
In all seriousness, yes, you have exposed my modus operandi. I write a lot of posts that are intended to provoke, in the good sense of the term, which I don’t think is an unworthy goal.
All that being said, I don’t think a fair reader could get the impression that I’m at all saying or even implying that teachers’ unions are the main reason why “underclass” schools fail. I also point to problems of infrastructure (typically a left-wing issue), social pathology (typically a right-wing issue) and proper management and motivation (typically a “centrist” issue).
— PEG · Apr 24, 07:16 AM · #
Here’s a thought – leave a short, dummy post at the top of TAS’s main page, hidden by CSS. Turn comments on, trap spam.
— Chet · Apr 27, 02:52 PM · #