Italogermania
Not sure why — perhaps because I am a deracinated cosmopolitan — but I found this notion of Dani Rodrik’s intriguing:
If the Eurozone was a country rather than a loose grouping of countries, workers would be migrating en masse from Italy to Germany.
This led me to think about Klaus Wowereit’s line about Berlin being poor but sexy, and the general population collapse in eastern Germany. What if a horde of Italians flooded booming Munich, and then headed north to cheap accommodations in Berlin and lesser eastern cities? Enterprising Somalis and Bengalis and Senegalese would soon follow. I realize that this wouldn’t be terribly appealing to the neofascists and even to some of my fellow cultural conservatives, even if new arrivals were exempt from cradle-to-grave welfare protections and they brought intact families in tow. But surely Germany’s dying cities would be far better off. Some on the German right have called for “Kinder statt Inder,” i.e., children and not Indians, but Kinder aren’t always on offer, even if you accept that they are the superior alternative, which is not always obvious (though I have my pro-natalist sympathies). Economic power is shifting away from parts of Germany and Italy; surely they can shift population around in such a way as to make the best of what they have, and perhaps revive moribund cultures in the process.
Of course, it could be that I want Europe to become a continent-wide melting-pot because this is the highest expression of my American chauvinism, so Europeans should be wary.
re: germany, <i>the economist</i> reported a few years ago that germany has a different fertility profile from italy. in italy far fewer women are childless; in germany more women are childless, but more women have children above the expectation. in other words, the e(x) is about the same, but the var(x) differs. this matters for the long term demographic trajectory obviously, for if fecundity (genetic or cultural) is heritable then the decline in germany should arrest at some point in the future….
— razib · May 12, 05:07 AM · #
“Dying cities” is hyperbolic. I wish I could afford an apartment in some of them.
— matt · May 12, 01:27 PM · #
A) Why do the “cities” need saving per se? Can we hear them screaming? Why is our concern not properly to the people within them, who may or may not appreciate being inundated by strangers from alien cultures? (Maybe we should ask them?)
B) Why would Bengalis and Senegalese automatically follow the Italians? By what mechanism would these people find East Germany more appealing with Italians than without? (Or do they even find it unappealing now?) Is this some sort of racial hierarchy I don’t get? Nordics -> Italians -> Brown folk -> Black folk?
— ERM · May 12, 05:42 PM · #
one thing: italy is really two countries, right? north italy is pretty much as ‘advanced’ as france or germany. southern italy no so much. southern italians do emigrate to northern italy, and have, for a while (the friulii region was populated by many southern italians for example). but many of them still stay south…with mamma….
— razib · May 12, 07:26 PM · #
ERM — What the hell are you talking about?
It’s simple — EU citizens can migrate freely. The (fanciful) idea is that Italians would go to German cities, thus adding some life. Other immigrants (non-EU) would follow. I wrote Somalis and Bengalis and Senegalese because these are groups that send a lot of migrants to other countries. Also, the names rhyme.
Basically, I think you’re insane, and you’re imputing views to me that I don’t have.
Re: cities dying: I care about person-based economic strategies too. But there is a lot of infrastructure in these cities that has gone underutilized. I recognize that not everyone will like this policy. It was a thought that I caveated pretty thoroughly.
— Reihan · May 13, 04:56 PM · #
Why is it such a catastrophe if Europe (or Japan or, God forbid, the US) were to slightly depopulate a little bit? I mean, surely populations can’t always expand, a sort of weird population ratchet? In the late 40s and 50s, we had a lot of babies, now we don’t have as many. Seems like a natural ebb and flow to me.
Now, sure, there are consequences regarding the welfare state (insofar as it’s a pyramid scheme that dictates you must have more at the bottom paying those fewer people at the top) but flooding these countries with new suckers seems like a delaying action more than an actual solution.
And another thing. It just seems obvious to me that these sorts of import-tech-workers-from-India-to-help-us-compete programs have nothing to do with actually helping Germany or individual Germans, per se, but everything to do with increasing the already fat bottom lines of these multinational corporations who don’t give a darn about Germany in the first place.
Oh, and calling them on their bullshit shouldn’t be considered racist (or insane).
— Derek Sutton · May 14, 12:19 PM · #
There’s Reihan’s nerve! I was trying to keep things relatively polite, but I should say that I thought what you had written was basically incomprehensible, although intriguing (like most of what you write), and I thought I’d ask a few clarifying questions. I’ll leave it to third parties to conclude whether they are non-sequiturs or not. But I was certainly not imputing views. It would be difficult to do….
I should say that I live in the EU, so I have some idea of how it works and doesn’t, but I still don’t think you’ve made a very well thought out argument here. I hasten to add that I don’t have any competing well thought out argument on offer, either (perhaps you noticed!), but I’m the anonymous commenter, not the one with the famous blog. I would, however, concur in the generality with above comments of Derek Sutton.
— ERM · May 14, 04:04 PM · #