What Transparency Demands
Andrew writes:
So many readers are furious that I have dared to ask the president to show the original copy of his birth certificate. The reason for demanding it is the same reason for demanding basic medical records proving Sarah Palin is the biological mother of Trig.
Because it would make it go away and it’s easily done.
I’m tired of these public officials believing they have some right to privacy. They don’t. It’s the price of public office. If you don’t like it, don’t be president. And for goodness’ sake, don’t run for president on a platform of transparency.
I find this admirably consistent, and I generally favor transparency in government. I also think Pres. Obama and former Gov. Palin would save us trouble by doing anything in their power to put these conspiracy theories to rest — and that they refrain from doing so because they benefit from ongoing controversies wherein their most vocal political adversaries appear to be conspiracy theorists.
But I disagree that “transparency” or campaign promises gesturing toward it demand action from either of them.
Surely we can all agree that elected officials necessarily enjoy less privacy that what is due a private citizens. For example, the medical health of a president or a governor is a matter of public concern, as are their financial entanglements and associates. It is easy to understand why.
As evident is that public officials are under no “transparency” obligation to address all questions. Were the right fringe to allege that Barack Obama is in fact a woman, and demand a photograph of his penis to definitively prove otherwise, and the left fringe retaliated by alleging that Sarah Palin is a man, and requested the same sort of photographic proof, Andrew would surely join me in concluding that both politicians have some right to privacy. Right?
So it isn’t true that politicians have no right to privacy. The question is thus what distinguishes situations when transparent politicians are obligated to provide all the answers they can from situations when they face a lesser burden. If we’re talking about what they should do as transparency advocates, rather than what they’re legally or prudentially compelled to do, I’d suggest this metric: would full transparency afford any insight into their actual official duties or their ability to perform them?
As far as I can see, neither details about the birth of Trig Palin nor seeing whatever it is the birthers are now demanding would give us any useful insight into how Sarah Palin or Barack Obama might perform in office. Critics of my standard might say, “Were the conspiracy theories true — if Palin is lying about Trig, or Obama is lying about his birth certificate — the information demanded would afford invaluable insights into these people!”
The standard these critics prefer would seem to be, “If a conspiracy theory’s truth would make a politician out to be a liar, he or she must do everything in their power to refute it.” Again, I find that transparency standard untenable, and so should you, unless you’re prepared to react to an “Obama’s a woman” conspiracy by asking Barack Obama for a naked photo.
I’ve literally seen photographs of Obama’s birth certificate. Isn’t that “released”? Is Sullivan expecting Obama to pass around his personal identification documents, by hand, to every interested person in the country?
Exactly what does Sullivan mean by “released” that Obama and the State of Hawaii haven’t already done? I really don’t understand this birther crap any more.
— Chet · Jul 29, 08:53 PM · #
I deal often with public officials, either those employed to lead public agencies, or those elected to perform executive functions. They are subject to a whole lot of crackpottery, and in both the case of Governor Palin, whom I am loathe to defend but find I must, and President Obama, if either indulged these full-blown whackaloons, they would find it necessary to employ staff members who did nothing but. If you take one crazy person’s demands seriously and are in a public position, you must unfortunately take them all seriously. And you would find yourself inundated. Neither Governor Palin nor President Obama is under any such obligation to assuage the lunacies of their critics, be it over a child’s “true” parentage or their own birthplace; Sullivan’s response — which smacks of so much self-justification and ass-covering — seems to assume that to behave in such a transparent fashion would do anything to dissuade the so-called controversies. He is sorely in error. Crazy ain’t persuadable.
— Erik Vanderhoff · Jul 29, 08:54 PM · #
I don’t think Conor’s standars is workable, because Obama’s birthplace is relevant to his performance in office; i.e. whether Obama is Constiutionally eligible to president, but that still doesn’t make it worth it.
I think both Palin and Obama are correct not to indulge the theorists because it would set a bad precedent.
I don’t know if a clear standard can be articulated. Fortunately, these things are generally decided in elections, so we can decide for ourselves whether a candidate has exhibited a sufficient degree of transparency.
— JohnMcG · Jul 29, 09:02 PM · #
Yeah … in his infallible ability to grasp at any possible post-hoc justification for his Trig-Trutherism, Sullivan manages to grab the wrong side of the “consistency” point.
There is, as Conor ably points out, such a thing as a charge too morally demented, too waterproof, too ill-motivated, too intellectually shabby, too offensive and too irrelevant to respond to. Such claims so poison public discourse and are such an offense to right reason, that they should not be answered on principle, even if it be very easy to answer them. Crankdom should never be enabled. The only moral response to Birtherism and Trig-Trutherism (and 9/11-Trutherism and Holocaust Denial, etc.) is to marginalize and/or ignore those who peddle in them.
— Victor Morton · Jul 29, 09:08 PM · #
The parallel is inexact. (And why does that not surprise me?) The President and the lawyers in his employ have declined to allow the release of the long-form birth certificate, which is one page long as mostly composed of demographic information. Why they have resisted this one can only speculate. Sullivan has been demanding the release of medical records, which for even a single hospital admission are much more extensive (those where I used to work were around twenty pages long for an admission recording a newborn). Sullivan has no call to be pouring over the progress notes jotted down by Gov. Palin’s obstetrician or the labor deck nurses or the notes of the hospital’s social work division, either. (And how many sets of records among those the Palin clan does he insist on seeing?). It beggars belief that he thinks it worth considering that Bristol Palin gave birth to a baby on 17 April, got pregnant again between four and ten weeks later, and then gave birth to another baby on 29 December between eight and fourteen weeks premature (and buffaloed Levi Johnston to conceal to all and sundry the time the latter child spent in neo-natal intensive care).
— Art Deco · Jul 29, 09:36 PM · #
Unclear to me what Sullivan is demanding. Original record of birth is with Hawaii officials. Are Hawaii officials authorized to release it under any circumstances? Could even Obama obtain it?
— alkali · Jul 29, 09:53 PM · #
Would full transparency afford any insight into their actual official duties or their ability to perform them?
It still seems like your standard is overly broad, Conor. If someone alleged — with no more evidence than the claims Andrew Sullivan is considering — that Barack Obama has Down Syndrome, or that Sarah Palin is a crack addict, would you demand that both of them submit to blood tests (or release the results of blood tests they may have taken in the past)?
Yet I don’t think anybody would deny that the discovery that Obama was mentally retarded, or that Palin was a drug addict, would have a considerable bearing on their fitness for office.
— apk01004 · Jul 29, 09:56 PM · #
“Obama and former Gov. Palin would save us trouble by doing anything in their power to put these conspiracy theories to rest”
Gosh, this is a troubling statement.
Please, please Mr. President/Madam Governor, please make the voices in my head stop!
Conor, please assure me that your tongue was firmly planted in your cheek as you wrote that sentence.
— C3 · Jul 29, 10:12 PM · #
It beggars belief because it’s not true; Sullivan doesn’t think that Bristol is the mother. It’s just that there’s some pretty compelling medical reasons to believe that Gov. Palin can’t be, either.
— Chet · Jul 29, 10:15 PM · #
Sullivan did say that until it become flatly untenable with the pregnancy timelines. Then, like all conspiracy theorists, he simply shifted ground.
— Victor Morton · Jul 29, 10:16 PM · #
I don’t see where the ground shifted. “Bristol couldn’t have done it” only substantiates “Sarah must have” if Sarah and Bristol are the only two women in the world.
Of course, another way to say “shifted ground” is “revised the hypothesis in the face of disconfirming evidence”, which, you know, rational people do. Of course, no amount of evidence or contradiction seems to convince the people who believe in Sarah Palin’s miraculous, impossible, time-travelling birth to even doubt it just a little. After all, no woman has ever in her life lied about which children were hers, or raised another’s child as her own!
— Chet · Jul 29, 10:44 PM · #
Take your meds, chet.
— Art Deco · Jul 29, 10:46 PM · #
Maybe we can get a 3-way release … Trig’s long form BC, Obama’s long form BC and John Kerry’s SF-180
— Neo · Jul 29, 10:55 PM · #
“the people who believe in Sarah Palin’s miraculous, impossible, time-travelling birth.”
“Impossible”? Something tells me you’re really not the person to be evaluating the strength, the nuances and distinctions among competing claims. Even Sullivan doesn’t actually say Sarah as mom is “impossible.”
— Victor Morton · Jul 29, 11:08 PM · #
Regarding questions about BHO’s citizenship being crackpot, could someone explain to me why all those anti-“Birthers” have been lying and misleading about this issue? That includes NRO, which recently printed an editorial that just made things up; Weigel; Howard Kurtz; Ben Smith; and too many others to list. See my coverage of that side of things at my name’s link. There’s a summary at the top followed by a list of posts detailing those various lies and misleading statements from various reporters and the like.
— The details · Jul 29, 11:26 PM · #
lol, per usual you guyz miss teh point.
Sully is one…..teh birfers are legion.
1500 comments, ~ 50% birfer.
— matoko_chan · Jul 29, 11:33 PM · #
“It’s just that there’s some pretty compelling medical reasons to believe that Gov. Palin can’t be, either.”
Like what? The fact that older mothers are more statistically likely to bear children with syndromes, such as Down’s? I mean, who the fuck cares? And who the fuck cares if Obama was born in Kenya while the Secret Imams slaughtered the Secret Rabbis in a blood ritual consecrating him to Allah and the destruction of the Jewish American Pig Dogs? “Natural” citizenship is a borderline mentally deranged distinction of citizenship anyways; it’s not like being born on American soil magically confers some kind of virtue.
People just need to down a bottle of Laphroaig and a few Vicodin and go away.
— Erik Vanderhoff · Jul 29, 11:37 PM · #
Even by Sullivan’s absurd standards there is no parallel here.
High definition photo’s of Obama’s birth certificate are available for anyone to view on Factcheck.org, Palin hasn’t released anything.
Seriously what more is he supposed to do? The whole point of organizations like Fact Check is that it is impossible to make stuff like this available for every person to see.
— eric k · Jul 29, 11:39 PM · #
“High definition photo’s of Obama’s birth certificate”
The long-form from which these certificates are derived has not been released, for whatever reason.
“Sully is one…..teh birfers are legion.”
Sully’s confederates will be on your screens with a simple Google search, motoko_chan.
— Art Deco · Jul 29, 11:46 PM · #
It’s pretty bloody unlikely, since it’s against FAA regulations to admit a woman more than a few weeks’ pregnant onto a plane.
— Chet · Jul 29, 11:48 PM · #
What “long-form”? Obama’s birth certificate has been released and it meets every State Department requirement for proof of natural-birth citizenship. The birther claim is that, somehow, there should be an even birthier birth certificate, or something. But that’s incorrect – it doesn’t get any more official than what’s already been released.
— Chet · Jul 29, 11:52 PM · #
Obama’s mother is a US citizen*
THEREFORE
Obama is a citizen AND eligible to be president NO MATTER where he was born. He doesn’t have to show a birth certificate, the certificate is irrelevant.
*It’s not quite this simple, the actual rules involve caveats about how many US citizen parents the person has, and how long they lived in the Continental US…suffice to say Obama has passed all of those rules.
Can we PLEASE stop talking about this now like it’s remotely legitimate?
— bakum · Jul 29, 11:56 PM · #
A few points:
* I don’t believe there IS any more original paper copy of Obama’s “long form” birth certificate (meaning the actual physical paper filled out by the labor and delivery folks at the hospital) in existence—the State of Hawaii moved all its vital stats to electronic form, and destroyed the paper copies. Hawaii will release replicas of various sorts to eligible parties; at least one of which is in the possession of the Obama campaign offices, has been vouched for by the state registrar, and now examined by FactCheck.
* As others have pointed out—should Obama be required to present his birth certificate (and any other bona fide someone might deem relevant) to anybody who wants to see it? Who is trustworthy? Already, I expect many birthers are now accusing factcheck of being part of the conspiracy (many on the right seem to doubt factcheck’s neutrality…)
* Suppose Obama permitted Rush Limbaugh, or some other right-wing critic, to examine the birth certificate, and Rush pronounced it legit. Do you really think that would shut the birthers up? Or would that be proof that Rush is now tainted, too? After all, Obama is now the President, and has the full resources of the US government at his disposal—Surely He Could Order Production Of A Convincing Forgery, yadda yadda.
The problem with conspiracy theories, such as the various ways it is alleged that Obama is not eligible to be President, is that they are not falsifiable. Any evidence to the contrary was fabricated, and shows the desperation and power of the conspirators.
— EngineerScotty · Jul 29, 11:59 PM · #
What a long-form looks like is shown here, there’s quite a difference:
wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=105347
(Cue BHO supporters claiming that WND isn’t a credible source without even clicking through to see where the photos were originally printed in 3, 2, 1…)
Regarding erik’s “High definition photo’s”, perhaps he’d care to explain why FC recompressed those photos after first posting them and also removed camera data from them that gave a date earlier than when they supposedly took them. Details on that at my name’s link.
I swear, watching BHO supporters deal with this issue is like watching the world’s ugliest Flexigirl do her thing.
— The details on that · Jul 30, 12:00 AM · #
EngineerScotty might want to take a look at this before spreading possible disinfo:
wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=105233
— The details on that · Jul 30, 12:01 AM · #
Regarding erik’s “High definition photo’s”, perhaps he’d care to explain why FC recompressed those photos after first posting them and also removed camera data from them that gave a date earlier than when they supposedly took them. Details on that at my name’s link.
Are you listening to yourself? (Yes I know, my glib dismissal just proves that it’s all really true and I refuse to see it) Save that crap for the X-Files. And linking to World Nut Daily does you no favors either.
— Chris O. · Jul 30, 12:14 AM · #
One curious difference between Obama’s birth and Trig’s…Obama’s birth was reported by two local weekly newspapers within days of his birth. Oddly, in today’s equivilent, Trig was not afforded any such mention by his hospital’s website, though others born at the time were mentioned.
— Cadmus · Jul 30, 12:17 AM · #
24Insane.com wrote: “What a long-form looks like is shown here, there’s quite a difference:”
Those birth certificate photostats are dated 1966. The lady didn’t get them recently, she got them 43 years ago. They do not support the assertion that Obama could obtain such a thing for his own birth record.
The Certificate of Live Birth, which is all that Hawaii provides on request today, is adequate for all legal purposes.
It cannot satisfy racist lunatics like yourself, however.
See a psychiatrist, nutball.
— Jon H · Jul 30, 12:32 AM · #
So what if Obama really is the Kenyan Muslim terrorist usurper you claim him to be?
You get to say hello to President Joe Biden for the next three years. Congratulations, what a right-wing victory.
It’s like these fantasy nutjobs think that somehow they’ll get to enter some alternate universe where the GOP won a landslide, John McCain is president and Sarah Palin is launching nuclear weapons across the Bering Strait.
— Travis Mason-Bushman · Jul 30, 12:39 AM · #
Unfortunately what Andrew Sullivan wants is to see the “original birth certificate”, not a “copy”.
As anyone who has followed the story knows Hawaii converted the paper originals to electronic records about eight years ago. That means that no “original” exists, wherein original means the 1961 vintage document made of cellulose and ink. The “original” now means what can be derived from a computer mass storage device. I imagine that this is nothing more than a series of values combined into a “record” and stored on magnetic media.
We give up a lot when we move to electronic records. We give up authenticity. But this is not Barack Obama’s fault. There is no factual information which calls into dispute the known records of Obama’s birth in Hawaii.
If someone wants to do original reporting, what they should do is investigate how a state creates electronic records from the original documents. Birth records are very easy to convert. Marriage records are also easy. Something difficult to convert: high school, college records, police reports. They just contain too much information which changes quickly over time compared to simple records of birth.
— tomj · Jul 30, 12:40 AM · #
The long form argument makes zero sense because the question is where Obama was born, not what the name of his fuckin doctor was. Once your inquiry gets decoupled from the actual issue then you’re not worth addressing. And right now Sully and birthers are married to the inquiry of “where is the long form BC” rather then the issue of where Obama’s birthplace is. The issue is resolved by what’s already been released.
— Dero · Jul 30, 12:46 AM · #
It doesn’t matter much anymore.
The SC has rejected numerous challenges to birther conspiracy theories, and will continue to do so (if and when it even bothers to consider them).
The HOR seems to think, via resolution, that Obama was born in Hawaii.
Nobody is going to remove Obama from office for “birther” causes.
Not that it matters. If Obama were to somehow obtain the original birth certificate, if it exists, the birther nuts would claim that IT was fake. Any reproduction posted on the Internet would be accused of being a Photoshop job, no matter the resolution. Any paper copy inspected and vouched by the news media or public officials would be branded a forgery, and the people who vouched for it would be accused of being in on the conspiracy.
I don’t think there is a damn thing Obama could do that would silence the birther crowd. But again—not that it matters.
— EngineerScotty · Jul 30, 12:47 AM · #
tomj wrote: “That means that no “original” exists, wherein original means the 1961 vintage document made of cellulose and ink.”
Hawaii is now saying that the original exists, but is off somewhere in archival storage. That could mean it’s in a Honolulu warehouse next to Indy’s Ark of the Covenant, or it could be in some Iron Mountain underground storage facility in an old mine. In any case, it’s probably stored off-site and not accessible due to retrieval being cost-prohibitive. (The idea is probably to only go to the archives in the event of a catastrophic database failure, when they’d need to re-enter lots of old records.)
— Jon H · Jul 30, 12:47 AM · #
I really don’t see Obama and Palin as parallel here. The circumstances surrounding the birth of Palin’s youngest child have always been weird and nonsensical to reasonable people. Speaking from personal experience, I would have a lot of questions if my wife had insisted on keeping her pregnancy secret for seven months. I would also have been very upset with her if, after her water breaking, she decided to board a plane. These are strange details, and they beg explaining. On the other hand, Barack Obama has been extremely candid about his unconventional childhood and background. This has been in the public eye for years now, even before he ran for office. And there is nothing strange about it, unless you mistrust anyone whose father is not American, or anyone who has ever lived abroad, or anyone who took his time finding religion.
For some people, Barack Obama will never be man enough, white enough, Christian enough, or American enough, and this is what is at the heart of this hubbub. As soon as the “birther” conspiracy dies down, they will find another one.
— quincyscott · Jul 30, 12:47 AM · #
What we need is an honest nutball who was born in Hawaii to go an request the document which proves that they were a natural born citizen.
We need comparisons, not a single instance.
Any Hawaiians out there?
— tomj · Jul 30, 12:48 AM · #
I’ve seen the Obama penis photo, and it’s obviously falsified.
— ben · Jul 30, 12:58 AM · #
But…will the birfer meme die?
Think about schiavo.
Again, here was a case where the weight of empirical evidence (CAT scan, EKG flatline, physician testimony) disproved the conspiracy theory. But there was no value to the GOP leadership in doing anything but pandering to the ……terribots we will call them. So Bill Frist made a diagnosis (on tv no less!) based on 1/10,000th of the video record (the infamous balloon video) ….although as a physician he was surely cognizant of his calumny.
But the GOP never made a full court press to educate their base, because there were terribots on both sides of the aisle. There was no penalty for pandering.
The difference is, that the GOP leadership now realizes thay are in danger of having their agenda coopted by the low information segment of their base, which has become proportionally overrepresented due to party shrinkage, which has also moved the party center farther right.
And the birther meme is not shared between parties, like the schiavo meme was.
The schiavo meme is extraordinarily persistant…. even after the autopsy, many americans still believe that Ms. Schiavo just needed pudding and speech therapy to emerge from her PVS.
Will the birfer meme be?
How do you kill a meme? We are seeing a full court press from the conservative punditry.
Mebbe if Glenn Beck outs himself as a non-birfer…..how likely is that?
lol
— matoko_chan · Jul 30, 01:13 AM · #
>> ..unless you’re prepared to react to an “Obama’s a woman” conspiracy by asking Barack Obama for a naked photo.
Except, of course, that a photograph isn’t ‘original’ and can be falsified. Following Sullivan’s argument, if there were to be a conspiracy theory about Obama’s gender, the only solution would be to allow birthers and media personnel full access to Obama’s privates.
— Ramon · Jul 30, 01:41 AM · #
Demands that Obama release his birth certificate have nothing to do with politics or attempts to prove him a liar or anything else, but with one basic thing: American Constitution demands that President of US must be “natural born citizen”. If Obama was not born in USA he is actually unconstitutionally in White House and all his decisions are automatically null and void. The country is in constitutional crisis. Therefore, he must provide unambiguous proof he is natural born citizen in order to be qualified to remain on the position of POTUS.
— Ivan · Jul 30, 02:09 AM · #
He has, Ivan.
But hey, who am I to interfere with your President Joe Biden fantasies?
— Travis Mason-Bushman · Jul 30, 02:12 AM · #
Ivan,
Can I assume that you were demanding that George W. Bush provide his original birth certificate too?
— Conor Friedersdorf · Jul 30, 02:16 AM · #
One problem that many have had in dealing with birthers, is they have been engaged on their own turf.
Think about it. Evidence that Obama was, in fact, born abroad, or is not a natural born citizen—a foreign birth record, a certificate of naturalization, or some document disputing the official story that he was born in Hawaii?
Absolutely none. A few bits of hearsay on the Internet, but not a single shred of inspectable evidence WHATSOEVER. None.
Meanwhile, Obama has produced lots of evidence that he is in fact a natural-born US citizen, which has been vetted by numerous journalists and public officials—and the birthers dismiss it all as inadequate, or forgeries.
So, birthers—where’s YOUR evidence? Where is the Obama’s Kenyan birth certificate? Where is the Indonesian certificate of Obama’s alleged naturalization there? When and how did he become a US citizen? Or is he still now a foreign subject? NONE of these things have surfaced.
Why is that?
— EngineerScotty · Jul 30, 02:21 AM · #
Wow, for those of us who remember how Andrew Sullivan used to slaver over George Bush, epitome of manliness (when he wasn’t digging up photos of Dick Cheney’s penis), it’s pretty obvious what is happening. The bloom is off the rose. Somehow, it always happens, every man disappoints. Expect to start hearing soon how Obama has destroyed America and the Constitution, by refusing to endorse gay marriage, and the only hope is some new, non-bleeder, savior.
— y81 · Jul 30, 02:34 AM · #
Ivan,
Are you paying attention? The documentation has been shown, unambiguously, that Obama was born in Hawaii. There is nothing else to show. You are delusional. Good luck, idiot.
— TheBulge_90 · Jul 30, 02:36 AM · #
Wherever this issue goes, lying and cowardly BHO supporters are sure to follow.
Regarding the long-form issue, I’m going to assume that the photostats were obtained recently. If not, see this similar item that was obtained in 1998: snarkybytes.com/?p=521
Note also that the complaint about WND is invalid: in one case they’re quoting something a HI official says, and in the other they’re reprinting something from the Honolulu Advertiser. BHO fans must think you’re stupid.
And, of course, in BHO’s book he talks about seeing his own cert and obviously he wasn’t referring to the picture you’ve seen.
Regarding the rest of the lies posted by Obama supporters, if anyone has a valid argument about anything I’ve written, please be the first to point it out.
And, it might be a good idea for Conor to:
1. Out those who make invalid arguments without revealing who they are, and
2. Actually spend five minutes looking into a specific example where I’ve pointed out where someone is lying about this issue.
— 24AheadDotCom · Jul 30, 02:40 AM · #
“It’s pretty bloody unlikely, since it’s against FAA regulations to admit a woman more than a few weeks’ pregnant onto a plane.”
Uh, what? My wife would have been very interested to hear that when she flew to Albuquerque at six months along. Maybe you’re confusing “FAA regulations” with “AMA guidelines?” Though I might suspect that you are, in fact, struggling with “things I made up in my head.”
Sarah Palin is Trig Palin’s mom. Barack Obama is a citizen of the United States. These are issues that are settled, controversial only to those who are manifesting criteria of certain delusional or personality disorders, and have far passed from amusement to merely provocation.
— Erik Vanderhoff · Jul 30, 02:43 AM · #
“Regarding the long-form issue, I’m going to assume that the photostats were obtained recently.”
And I’m going to assume that you’re an al-Qaida member attempting a traitorous disinformation campaign against our presidency to undermine the War on Terror. Can I see your papers, citizen?
Assumptions are fun, aren’t they?
— Travis Mason-Bushman · Jul 30, 02:53 AM · #
Some of the folks here haven’t quite followed what it is exactly that Sullivan was griping about with the Trig-airplane-delivery thing.
What he was complaining about was the absurd fantasy version of Trig’s birth that Sarah Palin repeated. Her version of the story is obviously a tall tale. It just couldn’t have happened, unless she is a complete lunatic. Who gets on plane after their water has broken?
Admittedly, he DID get on the “is Trig really her baby” thing, but his complaint about the details of the story have evolved. Whether it was ever appropriate to ask to see Trig’s birth certificate or medical records is up for grabs, but there is a real issue here. Sarah Palin has a history of telling what Sullivan calls “odd” lies. Not politically important lies, but strange elaborations and exaggerations that are easily disprovable. She’s done this a lot. This doesn’t make her evil or corrupt, but unserious and loopy. Each of these fibs might be inconsequential on its own, but when you look at her pattern of saying things that are just plain crazy and improbable, it really is an issue. Who is this odd person anyway?
The Birth certificate issue, on the other hand, is just plain stupid. If a “short form” birth certificate is good enough for the state department, it’s good enough for me. And there’s all the other evidence, including detailed eyewitness testimony from a doctor. Journalists and officials have investigated this using all the conventional tools you use to investigate this kind of thing, and there is nothing there.
Sullivan went off half cocked in a few posts today (he made one post asking why only factcheck was able to examine the birth certificate, when in fact several other journalists were given access to it), but he’s backed off and reversed himself.. It’s a peril of the kind of intense blogging he does. Sometimes you fuck up. It’s worth noting that he did fix it.
I’m not really that concerned with defending Sullivan here, but I do see some consistency here, and I think his judgment here is defend able enough to point out the real difference between these two issues. Palin keeps saying stuff that’s obviously outlandish and his prying into her personal business is his way of pointing that out. Obama, on the other hand, has been perfectly transparent and reasonable in the way he presents his personal history. To the extent that this biographical stuff matters, there is a real difference.
— Jamie · Jul 30, 03:12 AM · #
An image of a photostat of a period long-form certificate was published in the <i>Honolulu Advertiser</i> recently.
http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/assets/gif/M1139416728.GIF
The information on these long forms appears to be banal, which is why it is puzzling that Obama has resisted making his public.
The FAA regulation to which ‘chet’ refers appears to be an advisory to airlines on what rules to impose on passengers more than 36 weeks pregnant, not a mandate. ‘chet’ fancies that some unidentified woman got pregnant, persuaded the Governor of Alaska and her husband (both 43 years old and with four children) to take custody of the child upon birth and to concoct a cover story about the Governor herself being pregnant and giving birth. Or maybe Trig is Bristol’s child and Tripp is Willow’s child (sired by David Letterman)…..— Art Deco · Jul 30, 03:13 AM · #
Just a question. . . what exactly has he done to “resist” releasing the long form certificate? Seems like he’s just ignored a very silly controversy.
And as a bunch of folks have already pointed out, you can’t kill a conspiracy theory. Release the thing and ten minutes later it’ll be picked apart and incorporated into an ever more byzantine story. There is not such thing as falsification for these people, and the complexity of their claims resist any kind of magic bullet to shut them up. Has anyone satisfied the “who shot JFK” crowd or the 911 truthers (“birther” is a play on “truther” btw)? Of course not. These people don’t play by the same rules we do.
— Jamie · Jul 30, 03:22 AM · #
<i>To parents of special needs children across this country, I have a message for you. For years you have fought to have America be a more welcoming place to your sons and daughters. And I pledge to you that if we’re elected, you will have a friend and advocate in the White House.</i>
If Palin uses her “son” as a platform it should be fair game to question the legitimacy of his birth.
As for the other birthers, I can understand their concern but where was the outrage about McCain’s birth? He was born in Panama and should be technically ineligible for the Presidency.
— Shana · Jul 30, 03:22 AM · #
“What he was complaining about was the absurd fantasy version of Trig’s birth that Sarah Palin repeated. Her version of the story is obviously a tall tale.”
Jamie,
The AP report on the Governor’s delivery is here. The report in the Anchorage Daily News is substantially the same.
http://www.bostonherald.com/news/national/west/view.bg?articleid=1088213
The person quoted is not the Governor, but her press secretary.
— Art Deco · Jul 30, 03:39 AM · #
Hilarious to see AssForAHead (“the details”) showing up here peddling his worthless crap. Dude, you’re pathetic.
— haha · Jul 30, 03:48 AM · #
Shana: Damn straight. It’s time those special needs kids learned the meaning of accountability.
Meanwhile, those of a legal bent might want to look into the Berg demands. You can see them in an original document here:
http://peekURL.com/zcro6i9
I realize that actually looking at the original source document is a new thing for many, but give it a shot. They were mostly reasonable: school records, admitting (in the standard legalistic form, i.e., like the ones involving car accidents at peekURL.com/z87wd3v) he wasn’t born in Kenya, and so on. The latter might confuse – let’s be frank – Obama’s lying and idiotic supporters, but that’s the way those things are structured: “admit you crashed your car into the stop sign”, etc.
Instead of just meeting those demands, the BHO campaign and the DNC fought the suit in court and – as can be seen by all the sockpuppets – in the court of public opinion. There has to be something they’re afraid of revealing.
— 24AheadDotCom · Jul 30, 03:58 AM · #
Sounds about right. What about that do you find objectionable? My brother-in-law was adopted, even though my wife was born naturally to her parents; they simply decided to adopt for their second child. My uncle has three natural children and three more by adoption. It’s not uncommon for parents to have mixed families of their natural and adopted children.
For all we know it could be Todd’s child by another woman; that’s a plausible motive for Palin to raise it as her own and concoct a fake pregnancy story to conceal the scandal.
That’s just speculation but I don’t see what’s unreasonable about it. It’s far more reasonable than Sarah Palin beginning labor in front of the entire Governor’s Convention and nobody noticing.
Settled by what, specifically? Personally, even one photograph of Sarah Palin obviously pregnant during the appropriate timeframe would settle the issue for me.
— Chet · Jul 30, 04:05 AM · #
Art Deco wrote: “An image of a photostat of a period long-form certificate was published in the <i>Honolulu Advertiser</i> recently.”
Use your brain. The photostats clearly state that they were produced in 1966.
Is it 1966? No. Are photostats of long-form birth certificates still available? NO.
Find me a photostat produced this year.
— Jon H · Jul 30, 04:27 AM · #
24BrainCellsAtBest wrote: “Regarding the long-form issue, I’m going to assume that the photostats were obtained recently.”
On what basis? They clearly state, at the bottom, that they were generated in 1966. The article does not say they were obtained recently, and it seems entirely likely that the woman had them made when her kids were 5 and entering school.
And whether a long-form was obtained 11 years ago is irrelevant given that Hawaii no longer offers long-form copies.
Get a long-form birth certificate today, 24NeuronsOnAGoodDay.
— Jon H · Jul 30, 04:31 AM · #
i disagree with sully on this point. but i have to clarify re: palin, he didn’t think that bristol birth Trig. he thinks that sarah palin lied about her whole story about the birth of trig. because that story makes absolutely no sense. or so he says. i still don’t think it’s a big deal and she has no obligation to tell anyone about it.
— john b · Jul 30, 04:36 AM · #
I was obviously under the false impression that this was a higher-grade site like volokh.com rather than a food fight site infested with cowardly BHO supporters.
In any case, it wouldn’t be difficult to obtain a long-form cert if you’re a certain person considering that:
1. As we now know (despite the lies from Obama supporters) Hawaii still has the underlying, original information in paper form somewhere, and
2. Obama has himself stated that he at least saw his original cert, and if he doesn’t still have it that would be extremely surprising.
Conor: please enforce some rules around here. Otherwise, childish Obama supporters are going to drive away anyone who like me thought this was a higher-grade site. I don’t think you want to transform this site into balloon-juice.com.
— 24AheadDotCom · Jul 30, 04:38 AM · #
Rules like “you can’t support Barack Obama”, presumably.
— Chet · Jul 30, 04:42 AM · #
There’s not much funnier than 24Ahead looking for a “higher grade site.” He’s a freeper down to the bone.
Nothing will make the birthers go away. Sullivan is wrong here – there’s no point in trying to mollify lunatics. It just encourages them. And make no mistake about it – the birthers are lunatics.
— MoeLarryAndJesus · Jul 30, 04:53 AM · #
I’m just glad Andrew had his key and his door wasn’t jammed when he returned from his vacation. I think we might would have had a SullivanGate.
— mel · Jul 30, 04:54 AM · #
Lost in all this madness is the fact that I’ve never seen Joe Biden’s birth certificate. How can we be sure that he is constitutionally qualified to take office in the event that President Obama resigns or dies? The honest answer is that we can’t be sure!
Of course, there are a lot of things I’m not sure about, insofar as I haven’t checked into them myself. Is this gum I’m chewing really sugar free? Is the woman I’m dating in fact a con artist biding her time in a long running plot to steal my identity? Is my birth mother actually Princess Diana?
I’ve concluded that it would be absurd to dedicate even a moment of my time investigating the answers to those questions. But 24Ahead, you seem to apply a lower threshold to what you’re willing to investigate.
So how about it. Look into Biden for us?
— Conor Friedersdorf · Jul 30, 06:24 AM · #
24Ahead thinks that anyone who assumes he’s an idiot must be an Obama supporter. If you believe all the evidence presented, and have concluded that birthers are absolutely bonkers, you must be a cowardly Obama supporter.
24AHead is not a serious person, and shouldn’t be treated as such.
— TheBulge_90 · Jul 30, 06:34 AM · #
Re: — 24AheadDotCom · Jul 30, 12:38 AM … “cowardly BHO supporters”
Do you mean… Barack Obama, the President? lol
Sullivan’s crime might have been sloppy reporting, but one of yours is apparently being incredibly gullible.
Having already supplied his birth certificate, the burden of proof is now on the accusers. They need to cough up some proof of their wild, lunatic claims or STFU.
Barack Obama Is The Legitimate President of The United States of America.
If you believe otherwise, you should carefully and closely examine the sources of information you are basing these beliefs on.
Do your sources adhere to the journalistic and police investigatory basics of information-gathering?
The 5 W’s (and one H): Who – What – When – Where – Why – and – How:
Here’s an example:
Who? Barack Obama.
What? Being totally qualified, vetted and legitimately elected, Barack Obama was sworn in as President of The United States of America.
When? Barack Obama was inaugurated as president on January 20, 2009.
Where? The United States Capitol.
Why? Barack Obama was fairly and legitimately elected by the citizens of The United States of America and the elected representatives of the people in the form of the Electoral College.
How? Chief Justice John Roberts administered the oath of office of the President of the United States of America to Barack Obama… twice.
Yes, Virginia, Barack Obama Is The Legitimate President of The United States of America. Deal with it. Both John McCain and Hillary Clinton did, two people with motive and resources to discover any nefarious 48-year “plot” by President Obama to hide his “true “ “not-in-America birthplace,” …and couldn’t.
I won’t hold my breath waiting for the “birthers” to supply the world with their nonexistent “proof,” but that doesn’t mean you can’t. Start now.
And Sullivan? Get some sleep, man.
— queequeg · Jul 30, 08:21 AM · #
Dear Misguided 24aHead…
Barack Obama, in *Dreams From My Father* (page 26):
“I discovered this article, folded away among my birth certificate and old vaccination forms, WHEN I WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL.” (emphasis added)
Over 30+ years, it would not be unusual for someone to misplace, lose, or no longer have access to documents that were in their possession when they were a teenager.
But it is possible, in President Obama’s case, that his Grandmother was the caretaker of the family documents, and the birth certificate he wrote about may be floating around in a box that’s been packed away since her passing.
It’s also plausible that she may have misplaced it herself, or lost it many years ago.
Regardless, as President of the United States, there are far more important things for him to be focusing on than searching around for an old paper birth certificate that wouldn’t satisfy the skeptics and conspiracy theorists anyway.
Especially not you.
— Dreams from My Father · Jul 30, 08:31 AM · #
Most of this entire thread here, and all of this discussion, is nuts, even those arguing that the birth certificate is real. I have 3 Birth Certificates, none of which is the original from 1953, which was lost long ago. You can get copies for $3 each where I live. Are those legal copies now originals? Is my original missing? Total red herring.
Bottom line and the only thing anybody rational needs to know — the birth notice was in the Honolulu Advertiser when Barack was born in 1961. Done. Finit. Argument over. QED.
Unless you think the aliens from outer space engineered the 45+ year plan to put that baby from 1961 in the White House. If you don’t think Barack was born in Honolulu in 1961, make sure you use enough aluminum on that home-made hat of yours. ‘Cause otherwise they’ll get you.
And for those who want to talk to those people, go take a walk or have a glass of red. Both are better for you than trying to be rational with the nut jobs.
— ron · Jul 30, 02:14 PM · #
The absolute best argument I have seen from anyone is that the extra info on the long form might have some information on it that Obama would find embarassing.
Still, that’s a pretty lousy argument – there’s no serious argument that the long form (if it exists) would disqualify Obama from being president, so the birthers should leave Britney (um, Obama) alone.
— J Mann · Jul 30, 03:09 PM · #
Shorter GOP:
“50 years ago we shouted nigger, 30 years ago we talked about States Rights, now we ask to see the president’s birth certificate.”
— matoko_chan · Jul 30, 04:30 PM · #
Conor: how about you try and use your brain to try to understand my argument rather than just making things up? You can start at my name’s link; it applies to you.
— The problem with people like Conor · Jul 30, 04:59 PM · #
^^
quod erat demostrandum
— matoko_chan · Jul 30, 05:03 PM · #
Matoko,
If your gonna steal my post from Balloon Juice at least give me credit:-)
Ron,
You obviously haven’t studied up on birther logic:
) they claim that the announcements in the Honolulu’s papers just mean that he was born and his mom was from Hawaii, you know newspapers routinely list the birth announcements for every random woman who once lived in their state, no matter where the birth happened, that is why they take up 2/3rds of the paper:) Seriously they are that insane and nothing will convince them.— Eric K · Jul 30, 05:28 PM · #
Ok your edit system sucks, here is my post hopefully without lines:
Matoko,
If your gonna steal my post from Balloon Juice at least give me credit:-)
Ron,
You obviously haven’t studied up on birther logic:
) they claim that the announcements in the Honolulu’s papers just mean that he was born and his mom was from Hawaii, you know newspapers routinely list the birth announcements for every random woman who once lived in their state, no matter where the birth happened, that is why they take up 2/3rds of the paper:) Seriously they are that insane and nothing will convince them.— Eric K · Jul 30, 05:30 PM · #
i did on the other thread ….i just rewrote it in first person here…assuming these guyz already read that one.
but you deserve props.
pure distillized truth that.
To paraphrase Eric K…..
Shorter GOP:
“50 years ago we shouted nigger, 30 years ago we talked about States Rights, now we ask to see the president’s birth certificate.”
bettah?
— matoko_chan · Jul 30, 06:40 PM · #
I was just jerking your chain, use it whereever you want, I’m not the AP:-)
— Eric K · Jul 30, 07:16 PM · #
OK Eric K. You win. I can’t even begin to believe how absurd a mind would have be to believe this stuff.
Great Shorter GPO quote, tho. Whoever wrote it.
— ron · Jul 30, 08:43 PM · #
Lots of people may have thought of it as well, but I came up with my version on my own, they pulled it out for a post on Balloon Juice and included the full Atwater quote that I riffed on.
— Eric K · Jul 30, 08:57 PM · #
I heard Lee Atwater paraphrased by one of my [sometime] conservative heros.
He said to me in email that conservatives were “racewhipped” because they couldn’t even mention race anymore.
He sounded so wistful.
— matoko_chan · Jul 31, 04:48 AM · #