Quote of the Day
“Texas justice is essentially sorcery, and there will be people who say that we can perfect it, that we can close the loop-holes. They’re wrong. The problem isn’t with loopholes—it’s with us. We are fallible. Conservatives, more than anyone, should know that—it undergirds their entire philosophy. They don’t think government can perfect much of anything. What makes them think we can perfect murder?”
I love and admire Ta-Nehisi Coates, but calling the death penalty murder is begging the question and is sure to convince no one who is not already convinced.
— PEG · Oct 8, 08:40 AM · #
Texas is what a true democracy looks like: scary and exhilarating and funny as hell.
— Kristoffer V. Sargent · Oct 8, 02:26 PM · #
I worked for the Texas Supreme Court for 2 years and have been a lawyer here for 10. I don’t know who Coates is or the context in which he made this statement, but the statement is idiotic and overly broad.
— JC38 · Oct 8, 03:10 PM · #
Aw, lay of the dude. Some of Coates’s best friends are Texans.
— Kristoffer V. Sargent · Oct 8, 03:26 PM · #
What would you call the execution of an innocent man besides “murder”?
— Chet · Oct 8, 03:32 PM · #
PEG,
The context is Ta-Nehisi talking about the execution of an innocent man, but point taken. The quote would be better if the last word were “killing.”
— Conor Friedersdorf · Oct 8, 03:32 PM · #
Reckless homicide, involuntary manslaughter, drunk driving, running over a pedestrian with the wheels of justice.
Without the mens rea old chap, it is not — cannot be — murder.
— Kristoffer V. Sargent · Oct 8, 03:50 PM · #
Kristoffer,
From wiki, one can be guilty of murder if one demonstrates a:
“Reckless indifference to an unjustifiably high risk to human life.”
Given the ludicrous weakness of the evidence here, a plausible argument could be made that Willingham’s killers demonstrated precisely this “reckless indifference.”
— salacious · Oct 8, 03:57 PM · #
In texas prosecuters and judges have incentive to excecute people. The voters like that.
— cw · Oct 8, 04:38 PM · #
My impression is that the very act of living in Texas precludes mens rea— succumbing to it eventually leads to candyass pangs of remorse, requiring one to be forcibly relocated to Missouri.
— turnbuckle · Oct 8, 05:49 PM · #
KVS: I had to look up mens rea but once I did I can’t help feeling like you’ve got yourself a pretty nice closed loop there. I know, I know, you’re going to say that calling the execution of an innocent man “murder” is really just showing people pics of Ms. Hypothalamus with her legs akimbo. But I think the answer that is “I know it when I see it.”
— Tony Comstock · Oct 8, 06:05 PM · #
Exactly how much do we want to savor the point that the killing of Todd WIllingham wasn’t murder, but merely, say, wrongful intentional homicide? How vindicated should that make us feel? There are big things, & there are small things. For the state to deliberately, systematically execute an innocent man is a big thing. The use of the word “murder” rather than some other term to describe the killing in a blog post is a small thing. To focus too narrowly, or to take too much satisfaction in correcting Coates’ choice of words is to evade the larger point, which is a moral defect.
— K · Oct 8, 06:19 PM · #
Tony, perhaps I do have myself in a semantic pickle. Statutory ‘murder one’ can be the killing of another in the course of a felony, and it’s possible the judge and prosecutor are guilty of some felony in this and other cases.
But however it has been stretched by policy, murder the act is still conceptually distinct from killing with passion, killing by accident, killing by recklessness — anything without malice aforethought. Unless the arrest, trial and execution was some kind of diabolical plan to off this guy, it is not helpful nor is it accurate to call what happened to Willingham ‘murder’ (more like stupidity, corruption and prejudice — in the older sense of the word).
Well, K, I’m a big fan of accuracy in language. I savor it everywhere and all the time, even when others think I should be all emotional and outraged and shit.
I thought Coates larger point was that it’s cool to pass judgment on the entire state of Texas because he saw a disturbing segment on Nightline.
Look. What happened to Willingham is a scary thing, and justice should be pursued even though it’s too late to save him. I feel awful for his family. But that doesn’t make the state-sanctioned execution of a tried and convicted man ‘murder’, no matter how innocent he was.
A side note: if we could be 99.9% certain of guilt, I’d hang all murderers and rapists. Not all killers, mind, but all murderers and rapists fo sho.
— Kristoffer V. Sargent · Oct 8, 07:13 PM · #
So, uh, vote for me!
— Kristoffer V. Sargent · Oct 8, 07:15 PM · #
KVS – do all lawyers regularly miss the point so completely, or is it just you?
— Chet · Oct 8, 07:30 PM · #
Not just me, I assure you. I just excel at it.
— Kristoffer V. Sargent · Oct 8, 07:31 PM · #
I’d no sooner judge all lawyers by what KVS posts here than I would judge all Dungeons and Dragons players by your posts, Chet.
— Tony Comstock · Oct 8, 07:42 PM · #
The man put to death was not innocent of the charge. The Atlantic article on this has been powerfully rebutted elsewhere. He was guilty as sin.
— jjv · Oct 8, 09:43 PM · #
Kristoffer, I also prefer that people choose their words well, & I’ll tell you, when I read the quoted passage from Coates, my eyes came to rest on the word “murder” (as I suspect was his intention). So I understand the impulse to take note.
But it’s possible to push this small point past comments-section pedantry & all the way to the borders of moral obtuseness. Care in language is a value, one among many. You’ll notice I don’t dismiss your concern for it by saying you’re “all emotional & outraged & shit” about somebody’s minor rhetorical flourish. You, on the other hand, give the game away when you contrast your concern for this value w/ other peoples’ desire that you “should be all emotional & outraged & shit” about the execution of an innocent man (as I believe Todd Willingham almost certainly was). No. I am saying there are also other values at stake here, & that they’re actually much more important than Ta-Nehisi Coates’ word choices. If you can keep this in mind while remaining supernally calm, good.
If you are universal in your fandom for accuracy in language, I encourage you to examine the record of statements by the parties to Todd Willingham’s arrest, indictment, trial, conviction, imprisonment, & wrongful execution. It’s in the nature of such travesties that a lot of people will have used language badly.
You say you thought Coates’ larger point was to approve passing judgment “on the entire state of Texas because he saw a disturbing segment on Nightline.” This is tendentious. I re-read his post, both the passage Conor Friedersdorf quoted & the whole thing, & I find nothing in it that recommends passing judgment against the entire state. (I am a Texan w/ Texan roots, & wouldn’t be inclined to overlook it if he were.) He referred specifically to Texan justice, which is one aspect among many. It trivializes the matter to say that Coates validates adverse judgment because of something he saw on TV. What he found disturbing, I think, was the cruel & incompetent way in which the Texan criminal justice system killed an innocent grieving father for a crime that didn’t happen. That also was the larger point I was referring to.
— K · Oct 8, 10:13 PM · #
“I’d no sooner judge all lawyers by what KVS posts here than I would judge all Dungeons and Dragons players by your posts, Chet.”
Good one.
— cw · Oct 8, 10:33 PM · #
Or pornographers by yours, Tony. Surely neither of us should be ashamed of our passions?
— Chet · Oct 9, 12:02 AM · #
“The Atlantic article on this has been powerfully rebutted elsewhere.”
Where? This is the magic Interwebs. You can back up your arguments with links. Try it, it’s easy.
— Travis Mason-Bushman · Oct 9, 05:55 AM · #
If your intention was to hurt my feelings, then congratulations, Chet, you’ve succeeded. Perhaps you’d like to print out this comment and pin it up as a trophy.
— Tony Comstock · Oct 9, 11:30 AM · #
K, fair enough. I agree with a lot of what you wrote.
Chet, do me next! — my hobby is drinking, gambling, and slappin’ bitches who don’t deserve it. Make me feel bad.
— Kristoffer V. Sargent · Oct 9, 02:00 PM · #
What, really? All the times I called you batshit fucking insane, and this cuts too close to the quick?
I’m taken aback, I guess. Especially since I was totally serious. Why should we be ashamed of what we love to do?
— Chet · Oct 9, 04:55 PM · #
“Texas justice is sorcery”? Damn straight that’s the quote of the day, unless you meant that in some sort of vaguely complimentary way.
— Adam Greenwood · Oct 9, 05:40 PM · #